quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:
Perhaps a good set of running shoes will be more effective...

Only if you think the bear will find them more palatable than what you might otherwise wear. Bear can run at 30-35 MPH. Usain Bolt, the Jamaican Olympic sprinter, has a top speed of 27 MPH.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:
What about something you need to work with both two and medium four legged threats. I'm betting a 45 isn't super effective against a brown bear.

No handgun round short of a .454 Casull or .500 S&W is going to be very effective against brown bear--and I'm not even certain of those.

Best defense against brown bear is don't piss 'em off

FWIW: My "woods handgun" is a 10mm 1911 Gov't model loaded with Underwood 220 gr. flat-nose hard cast @1200 FPS, 703 ftlbs. I think that's about as hot as 10mm comes.

I would be disinclined to try to shoot a bear with it unless I had absolutely no other option.

This isnt quite true,

A study i read took all the instances of known handgun discharges againdt black and brown bears in the US and it came out that as a ehole handguns were 97% effective. Most of the shootings were with 9mm.ost were against black bears but brown had similar results. The one where the bear was not stopped was 357 if i recall and the gentlman admitted he missed the bear.

Handguns are not as effective as long guns, and perhaps not the best choice but statistically speaking when you hit the target 9mm is plenty effective. There is always something better but having something was 97% effective in this study .

I do agree with you on shooting being a last resort.

460Rowland is pretty stout for an auto loader, but it’s still just a pistol cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by yucaipa:
.357 - 125gr JHP - 21.5gr W296 Ball - 1.590 COL that was religion, when dinosaurs ruled the earth. I still sleep with one.

You sleep with a dinosaur?

Only the ugly ones,after I've had a few, some things never change.

I will have to go with 38/357. Have been shooting them all my shooting life(40+years). I have shot everything under the sun and keep coming back to the 38/357. Not going into details because most of all here know what I am talking about. 22LR is next!

quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:

Perhaps a good set of running shoes will be more effective...

Or better yet, always go in the woods with someone slower than you.

I'd suspect if you are worried about a brown bear or a big kitty cat.... just about any handgun round will work effectively because the critter is going to be on top of you by the time you realize you need to use the gun... then you will be placing the barrel against its head and pulling the trigger as it bites down.

Seen a lot of dead folk with holes in them over the years. Seen a lot of alive folk with holes in them over the years as well. Caliber doesn't matter much at all. The deciding factor is the shooter putting rounds where they need to go.

Now if we are talking bears or big cats, its a different story. If I'm more worried about being eaten than robbed I want something starting with .44 and ending in Magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
This isnt quite true,

A study i read took all the instances of known handgun discharges against black and brown bears in the US and it came out that as a whole handguns were 97% effective. Most of the shootings were with 9mm. Most were against black bears but brown had similar results.

I find that hard to believe, so, while I'll take your word for it, I certainly won't bet my life on it

To the OP, in relation to defensive handgun use against 2 legged threats. No. Not when considering practicable size, capacity, recoil. Nothing is going to be statistically better than 9mm, .40, .45 in any real-world meaningful way.

Yes, you could pay a size/capacity/cost penalty to get something truly "better" but if you can't practically carry it or practice with it then what is the point?

.440 CorBon - Waterbury Bob, that is a blast (literally) from the past. Somewhere I have a 10" .440 CorBon barrel for my Desert Eagle and a few hundred rounds of factory ammo. Impressive cartridge design.

My initial reaction to the question was SW500, although it is primarily a range toy. I give every new shooter I work with a chance to try it with the "lighter" loads. I start them at .22 or .32 S&W and let them work their way up. Most will want to try at least a few rounds of the 500.

For a serious answer, I think 10mm Auto really stands out if you have a 2 legged / 4 legged scenario. If 2 legged only, 9x19mm is probably the best bet. For 4 legged only .44 Magnum and up.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
Massad Ayoob has written that the .357 Magnum, in its full-power 125-grain JHP loading, was very effective in the hands of Kentucky State Police. This is also very nasty to shoot, with sharp recoil, flamethrower muzzle blast and thunderclap report, and damages some guns. But you should never, ever count on anything to "stop" with just one shot.

Ayoob, in his typical “here’s my belief, now I’ll create a study to back it up”, was not incorrect. However, the 180 grain 10mm was very effective in the hands of KSP. 180 grain .40 was very effective in the hands of KSP. And more recently, the G17 is very effective.

The wide scope of calibers used by KSP shows really that it has more to do with the training to make the hits, than it does the caliber. When you get involved in a shooting, you don’t become a slobbering idiot that loses “fine motor skills” and all the other lies that instructors tell themselves and others. You do as you train. If you are well trained, you will perform well. If you are poorly trained, your results will be poor.

It’s all in what you put into the front end with training.

Damn jljones, there you go being all rational and stuff. This is 2020, only mindless emotional outbursts are allowed.

.357 mag. In the past I had dialed in a favorite recipe using 125gr jhp using Blue Dot powder that rated it at approx 1760fps, quite fast and used more sparingly. Shooting with my 6" Python there was very manageable recoil, a reasonable muzzle flash, but the slow burning Blue Dot was a clean burn powder as opposed to when I used Bullseye. Vihtavuori was a tad more expensive but yielded good results also.


Though used for most range trips, I'd usually just shoot .38+ for target. Hardly any noticeable recoil at all and quite accurate for pistol range distances.

I'll take a .45ACP JHP in a 1911, P220, G21 any day of the week to protect me and my family, any day of the week!

The caliber that really stands out is called "multiple holes through the most urgently needed vital organs."

We have a thread for .500 S & W Magnum now?
OK, how about this.

DSC00104 by cee_Kamp 32ACP, on Flickr

Generic locally made inside the waistband holster for the 500ES.

S&W 500 011 by cee_Kamp 32ACP, on Flickr

If you want a .500 S & W without a holster, this one uses a sling.

Destroyer 001 by cee_Kamp 32ACP, on Flickr

But truth be told, .500 S & W Magnum full power ammunition is extremely difficult to control. It takes lots of practice. It isn't for the faint of heart or recoil sensitive shooters.

I have worked up a .500 S & W Magnum reload using a 440 grain hard cast/gas checked projectile, and a full case/maximum load of Trail Boss powder. (Cowboy Action Shooter powder puff loads)
I should chrono that load, but I'm guessing about 700 FPS from the published reloading data I've accumulated.

With the setting sun behind you, perhaps two out of three shots, you can see the 1/2" diameter gas check on the base of the bullet as it heads downrange.
It's still an IPSC Power Factor of 308, about double what a hot loaded .38 Super or 9x23 Winchester produces.

I don't think I would want to shoot a brown bear/grizzly with that reduced load, but anything on two legs or lesser four legged creatures certainly wouldn't appreciate being shot with it.

A 10 year old child could shoot that reduced load, it is very gentle on the shooter.

I have procured a .500 S & W Magnum Thompson/Center Encore Katahdin Carbine rifle barrel. One of the Pro-Hunter 20 inch fluted variants. It's short, reasonably light, powerful and easy to carry.
It's what I am deer hunting with this season. (270 grain solid copper Barnes bullet at 2000+ FPS and 540 IPSC Power Factor)
For a comparison, a 150 grain 30-06 at 2800 FPS is a IPSC Power Factor of 420.

Using full powered .500 S & W Magnum ammo in a rifle configuration is much easier to control vs a handgun. It's a amazingly versatile cartridge. Mild to Wild!

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
Massad Ayoob has written that the .357 Magnum, in its full-power 125-grain JHP loading, was very effective in the hands of Kentucky State Police. This is also very nasty to shoot, with sharp recoil, flamethrower muzzle blast and thunderclap report, and damages some guns. But you should never, ever count on anything to "stop" with just one shot.

Ayoob, in his typical “here’s my belief, now I’ll create a study to back it up”, was not incorrect. However, the 180 grain 10mm was very effective in the hands of KSP. 180 grain .40 was very effective in the hands of KSP. And more recently, the G17 is very effective.

The wide scope of calibers used by KSP shows really that it has more to do with the training to make the hits, than it does the caliber. When you get involved in a shooting, you don’t become a slobbering idiot that loses “fine motor skills” and all the other lies that instructors tell themselves and others. You do as you train. If you are well trained, you will perform well. If you are poorly trained, your results will be poor.

It’s all in what you put into the front end with training.

Yes! Great example of fine motor skills under stress, "you can push the mag release but not the slide stop under stress?"