quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
What exactly do we learn in these threads?

We learn that people continue to start banal threads about handgun calibers.

Pretty much: Yeah.

I'm not callin' out the OP. Really I'm not. But I don't "get" such threads. This kind of thing has been hashed and re-hashed so many times, in so many forums, on so many blog posts, in so many magazine articles, in so many books it's silly.



There are proponents of all handgun calibers. They all have good arguments in favor of their chosen handgun round. Carry what you believe will suit your individual needs.

I will agree that the 10MM Auto cartridge is in that outstanding catagory. Just as 9x23 Winchester and a few others are equally exceptional

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
9x17 is 9mm Kurz or .380
9x18 is 9mm Makarov
9x19 is 9mm Parabellum
9x20 is 9mm Browning Long - slightly longer case than 9x19, semi-rimmed, but lower power and obsolete
9x21 is 9mm Italian or IMI - longer case with the same OAL as 9x19 for countries where civilians cannot have military 9x19
9x23 is 9mm Largo or Steyr (older lower pressure), or Winchester (newer higher pressure) - longer case and OAL like a .38 Super but not semi-rimmed

I was thinking of a rimless 9x20 loaded to higher than 9x19 pressures with the velocity of .357 Sig that fits existing 9x19 frames and actions.

But the 9x23 can equal a .357 Magnum with an OAL that should fit 10mm/45ACP actions with a grip width and capacity similar to 9x19, but a bit longer front to back. Would have been nice if it had gotten further...

Lefty Sig,
The cartridge that you are hoping for is the 356TSW.

356TSW gets my vote for the most outstanding handgun cartridge of the last few decades even though the 500 S&W Magnum clearly out muscles it

Introduced in 1992 to safely make Major in IPSC and other competitive shooting, the 356TSW is 9x21.5mm long casing and has a SAAMI pressure limit of 50,000 PSI.
YES, I said 50,000 PSI



COAL is the same as 9MM Luger pistols so it works in the smaller framed autoloaders providing 357 Magnum like ballistics with the 124/125 grain projectiles moving out at over 1350 FPS in your favorite compact 9MM sized package.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: colt_saa,

Whatever caliber is in your hand when the SHTF

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
All you need to know:

When I go to the handgun range, I shoot my .454 Casull and then my .44 magnums to loosen up the arthritis. By the time I get to my 10mm and .45 ACP handguns, they are a piece of cake.

.357 mag

.357 - 125gr JHP - 21.5gr W296 Ball - 1.590 COL that was religion, when dinosaurs ruled the earth. I still sleep with one.

This question comes up often. There's always someone who will say S&W 500 because it's among the most powerful handgun rounds. Then there will be folks mentioning there are revolvers chambered in .45-70.

Yeah, that's great. Those calibers are comically impractical for anything other than novelty or hunting.

For practical purposes, most would agree and should agree the correct answer is and always will be for the foreseeable future the 10mm.

The overall flexibility offered in the 10mm lends it to being an outstanding defense, hunting and target round.

The 10mm is so good, there is scarcely a reason for any other caliber to exist.

Honestly I kinda feel like the 7.5FK is a bit of a standout.

quote:

Originally posted by yucaipa:
.357 - 125gr JHP - 21.5gr W296 Ball - 1.590 COL that was religion, when dinosaurs ruled the earth. I still sleep with one.

You sleep with a dinosaur?

OK guys...I'm really not trying to get people riled up. But with all the talk of handgun calibers being pretty close in their effectiveness when used in real life, I was curious if there was a caliber that wasn't in that same "band"of mediocre performance we see when compared to rifle cartridges. I get it 9mm, .38, 40, and 45 all are decent performers.

What about something you need to work with both two and medium four legged threats. I'm betting a 45 isn't super effective against a brown bear. Where I am at, we have a growing population of feral pigs and mountain lions (I've seen some pictures of them, they are incredible looking cats...). So, to make this threat productive, what caliber would be effective against both your 2-legged and 4 legged threats...

Glock 20.
Done.
Next thread.

Given your parameters, I'm going to tout the 38 Super. It's only shortcoming is capacity. That's not the rounds fault, companies could very easily make a double stacked magazines & pistols to fit. After all, it was designed for a 1911 45 frame. There are countless polymer, aluminum, etc 45 acp frames that could easily be made to accept a double stack mag. 90% of the design has already been done. Anyway, It rivals & sometimes exceeds 357 sig. It's cheaper than 357 sig on the shelf & MUCH easier to reload (it reloads just as easy as any 9mm, 45, 40)... It can be downloaded for plinking with minimal recoil & can also be loaded up to & exceeding low end 357 magnum velocities with similar 9mm like recoil. Bullet selection is enormous as most 38 Supers are sized .356. So .355 & .357 bullets work well in them. Making it a suitable cartridge from bunnies to bad guys. It penetrates better than 45 with the speed of a 357 & the recoil of a 9mm. Such has been my experience over 40 years of shooting & reloading. Granted, it's mostly relegated to a single stack 10 rd mag (with the exception of some race gun frames) but it has many strong points to be your "overall" cartridge for man & some beasts.

.440 Corbon

quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:
I know the current wisdom is that most handgun calibers are OK but not great at stopping power (I know...it's a myth...). Is there an actual handgun caliber that does stand out?

I've heard 10mm, .357 Sig... but does anyone have any info on a handgun caliber that is really anything to write home about?

454 Casull. It rivals 30-30 performance out of a pistol.

I recently changed my woods carry guns. I was carrying a G20 or Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum.
Reason for change: Cut down on cost and shoot more.
Adopted: Ruger Blackhawk 4.5/8 barrel. .357 Convertible with extra 9mm cylinder.
I can practice and plink with the 9mm cylinder cheap. More trigger time translates to better proficiency. .357 ammo commonality with my GP100, too.
Carry load: Underwood 125gr .357 Bonded HP rated to 1700 FPS and 800 pounds of energy. Strong load (especially for lever guns) with lots of loud bang. I actually tested it in wet newsprint (PITA making up the test targets) and penetration was excellent and most bullets expanded to .80 or better. Recoil is typically stout but not more pronounced than other high end .357 loads. This is a carry load only and I dont shoot lots of it. I feel it will be up to dealing with anything I encounter up here.
Second option:
Ruger Super Blackhawk Convertible 4.5/8 inch .45 Colt with extra .45ACP cylinder. Plink cheap with .45ACP. Carry load for this gun is Underwood +P 250gr XTP HP rated for 1400 FPS and 1000 pounds of energy. Again, not a steady diet load. Close to .44M power but with the ability to shoot cheap.
If cost was no issue, the G20 is an excellent all around carry choice. No complaints with power, accuracy or reliability but I found ammo cost was keeping me from shooting it as much as I would like.

Yes, the 9mm. For self defense it seems to do everything the other calibers do at a much lower cost and lower recoil.

.

Greg Ellifritz conducted research in this area. His article, "An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power" is posted at:
www.ActiveResponseTraining.net/An-Alternate-Look-At-Handgun-Stopping-Power/


The material below is from his article, I think it will help you draw your own conclusion ~ but I also posted his thoughts on what seems to be the best options.

.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot – 154
# of hits – 213
% of hits that were fatal – 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated – 31%
One-shot-stop % – 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 60%

.25ACP
# of people shot – 68
# of hits – 150
% of hits that were fatal – 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.2
% of people who were not incapacitated – 35%
One-shot-stop % – 30%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 62%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 49%

.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)
# of people shot – 25
# of hits – 38
% of hits that were fatal – 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated – 24%
One-shot-stop % – 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 72%

.380 ACP
# of people shot – 85
# of hits – 150
% of hits that were fatal – 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated – 16%
One-shot-stop % – 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 62%

.38 Special
# of people shot – 199
# of hits – 373
% of hits that were fatal – 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated – 17%
One-shot-stop % – 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 55%

9mm Luger
# of people shot – 456
# of hits – 1121
% of hits that were fatal – 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated – 13%
One-shot-stop % – 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 47%

.357 (both magnum and Sig)
# of people shot – 105
# of hits – 179
% of hits that were fatal – 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated – 9%
One-shot-stop % – 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 61%

.40 S&W
# of people shot – 188
# of hits – 443
% of hits that were fatal – 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.36
% of people who were not incapacitated – 13%
One-shot-stop % – 45%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 52%

.45 ACP
# of people shot – 209
# of hits – 436
% of hits that were fatal – 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated – 14%
One-shot-stop % – 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 51%

.44 Magnum
# of people shot – 24
# of hits – 41
% of hits that were fatal – 26%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.71
% of people who were not incapacitated – 13%
One-shot-stop % – 59%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 88%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 53%

What matters even more than caliber is shot placement.

Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.
Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation
Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation
Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation.

No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!

Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn’t a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!

Rifle (all Centerfire)
# of people shot – 126
# of hits – 176
% of hits that were fatal – 68%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.4
% of people who were not incapacitated – 9%
One-shot-stop % – 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 80%

Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)
# of people shot – 146
# of hits – 178
% of hits that were fatal – 65%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation – 1.22
% of people who were not incapacitated – 12%
One-shot-stop % – 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) – 84%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) – 86%

.

quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:
What about something you need to work with both two and medium four legged threats. I'm betting a 45 isn't super effective against a brown bear.

No handgun round short of a .454 Casull or .500 S&W is going to be very effective against brown bear--and I'm not even certain of those.

Best defense against brown bear is don't piss 'em off

FWIW: My "woods handgun" is a 10mm 1911 Gov't model loaded with Underwood 220 gr. flat-nose hard cast @1200 FPS, 703 ftlbs. I think that's about as hot as 10mm comes.

I would be disinclined to try to shoot a bear with it unless I had absolutely no other option.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:
What about something you need to work with both two and medium four legged threats. I'm betting a 45 isn't super effective against a brown bear.

No handgun round short of a .454 Casull or .500 S&W is going to be very effective against brown bear--and I'm not even certain of those.

Best defense against brown bear is don't piss 'em off

Perhaps a good set of running shoes will be more effective...