I've got a NFA trust, and two suppressors that belong to that trust. Bought two new ones this week, and the FFL (who's brand new, I'm his first NFA transaction), is telling me I need fingerprints and a photo? I didn't do that for either of my previous silencers.

The fingerprints and photo requirement is a couple years old now.
It came about thru the new atf 41f rule (?).
Maybe this happened when Obama was in office.

I bought my last one in 2016 I think.

Yep all that changed about 5 or so years ago. Now everyone listed in the trust that will have access to the items held by the trust must be fingerprinted and submit photos.

Every Form 4 needs a photo and fingerprints.

A Trust is a legal document naming the Trustees or who can process the suppressors.

41F is a form that removes all named Trustees except the principal Trustee who submits a photo and fingerprints. A legal document that states there is only 1 responsible person in the Trust.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SIGfourme,

Only the trustees have to be printed and photographed, not the beneficiaries.

The amendment 41F requires only the sole Trustee to submit photo and fingerprints.

This legal document removes all other Trustees from the Trust. ATF has to process one person. Then tear up the amendment after the stamp is received.

My understanding is that 41F is the name of the rule making amendment that talking about photos and fingerprinting all RPs, and not an actual form that says “Form 41F”, at least not any government form. Some trusts may provide a trust amendment form to remove all trustees, except one, for their trusts, but that’s a form that’s made up for this purpose. It’s a loophole to get around having to send in prints and photos for everyone, not something that’s specifically addressed or advocated (or likely intended) in the ATF rule. It’s simply not disallowed by the wording of the rule, and therefore legal.

One potential thing to consider is that all of the removed trustees lose access to all of the existing NFA items on the trust during the time period that the new application is outstanding.

Thank you everyone. He decided to punt back up to silencerco, pay them the money, and have them handle everything from here out.

I wasn't planning on modifying my trust beyond the addition of the two new silencers. Hopefully I won't have to.

I think Silencerco is the manufacturer- they don’t do the transfer.
Photo is easy- 2 x 2 “ color photo which you tape to Form 4.
Fingerprint cards are free from the ATF or use the local PD dept cards. You can do fingerprints yourself or at local PD.
Mail Copy of Trust, Form 4 with photo (2), fingerprint cards x2 and check for $200 to ATF.
Wait is about 10 months.
If you mean SilencerShop, SilencerShop kiosk will do fingerprints and Form 4 with your Trust electronically. Wait goes down to 3 months.

Wait times for recent paper Form 4s are running over 1 year. For eForm 4s, although 90 days was the goal, current approval times are running about 160 days. Maybe the times will go down as the initial rush of eForms gets run through, but who knows. Either way, you’ve got a wait.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGfourme:
I think Silencerco is the manufacturer- they don’t do the transfer.
Photo is easy- 2 x 2 “ color photo which you tape to Form 4.
Fingerprint cards are free from the ATF or use the local PD dept cards. You can do fingerprints yourself or at local PD.
Mail Copy of Trust, Form 4 with photo (2), fingerprint cards x2 and check for $200 to ATF.
Wait is about 10 months.
If you mean SilencerShop, SilencerShop kiosk will do fingerprints and Form 4 with your Trust electronically. Wait goes down to 3 months.

You are correct, I mean silencershop.

My dealer is setup with them, and I guess they can charge $25 and handle all the paperwork electronically. The FFL just sends a personalized link, and silencership does it all. App on the phone for the photo, and you send fingerprints....though my FFL is looking at purchasing the electronic fingerprinting stuff.

There's a lot of politics and $$$ involved in the kiosk.

Electronic filing will cut your wait time by half--worth $25.
I'm still waiting on a paper Trust transfer that is going on 15 months.
Alaska has Electronic Fingerprinting services-it may be worthwhile to contact one of them or locate a kiosk to enter the info electronically.
Think of the kiosk as an ATM for electronic BATF transfers.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
Some trusts may provide a trust amendment form to remove all trustees, except one, for their trusts, but that’s a form that’s made up for this purpose. It’s a loophole to get around having to send in prints and photos for everyone, not something that’s specifically addressed or advocated (or likely intended) in the ATF rule. It’s simply not disallowed by the wording of the rule, and therefore legal.

One potential thing to consider is that all of the removed trustees lose access to all of the existing NFA items on the trust during the time period that the new application is outstanding.

There's a PDF from the ATF titled "GENERAL 41F QUESTION & ANSWERS". One of the items included in it:

>Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
>A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.

quote:

Originally posted by dry-fly:
Only the trustees have to be printed and photographed, not the beneficiaries.

Beneficiaries are quite different then Trustees, & Co-Trustees.
Beneficiaries cannot possess the NFA item, until it transfers when you die.

Fingerprint cards are for sale on Amazon, for those that do not know they are provided free of charge from the ATF.

I’ve ordered twice and each time received the fingerprint cards free of charge in about a week.
Second time decided to just order 500 cards to have on hand.
Myself, wife, and kids are all on the trust as Trustees and Co-Trustees so it gets to be expensive going to the Police department for fingerprints.
We do our own now.

ATF Fingerprint Card Request.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGfourme:
Electronic filing will cut your wait time by half--worth $25.
I'm still waiting on a paper Trust transfer that is going on 15 months.
Alaska has Electronic Fingerprinting services-it may be worthwhile to contact one of them or locate a kiosk to enter the info electronically.
Think of the kiosk as an ATM for electronic BATF transfers.

Electronic Form 4 filing does not require electronic fingerprints. eForm 4s are currently taking 5-6 months for approval regardless of whether prints are mailed in or submitted electronically. eForm 1s with mailed in prints are taking about a month. The prints are not the hang up.