I think its time to add a suppressed AR to the inventory. I am not interested in piecing the gun together. At the most I would purchase a complete upper and lower separately. I don't want anything fancy just a workhorse that will go bang every time and be accurate out to 100 yrds.

Are there any complete guns or complete uppers out there which are suppressor ready?

There's some really expensive options, but man this one is really compelling, can included!

https://libertycans.net/produc...ppressor-ar15-upper/

Dave and co have been at this for a long time, and they make cool stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
Are there any complete guns or complete uppers out there which are suppressor ready?

There are many, yes.

I think the can is as much a consideration or more so than the AR if you're going to go at it this way. Gonna need some parameters here, lol. There's too many ways to skin this cat and you're going to get recommendations all over the map, including "just get a Geissele and a Surefire."

What do you want out of it? The quietest at the muzzle? Quietest at the ear? Least gassy to the shooter? The most flash reduction you can get? Are you wanting one in 5.56, or are you going to shoot .300 Blackout? Is overall length a major consideration? Is this meant to be a do-it-all carbine? Do you intend to shoot it suppressed only, or do you want something that will function reliably both suppressed and unsuppressed?

There's a lot of considerations here. You can get "accurate out to 100 yards" in a variety of overall lengths from about roughly 35" and 6lbs to somewhere in the neighborhood of 42" and 12lbs.

You can suppress literally anything, including any AR. No magic in that. The issue is that the regular and reliable use of the suppressor equipped gun needs some tuning on gas operated guns (AR's in this example) to work well for both you and the gun.
There are many, many ways to do that.
If you want a complete plug and play solution then the integrally suppressed guns are the way to go. If I was buying one I'd just go with the DD ISR in .300 as your range length needs don't need anything else and it will be very quiet (I'm plotting how to find the funds for one myself). But there are many options for an integrally suppressed upper in other calibers, a quick search will get you other choices.
Having said that the main issue on an AR is managing the gas situation and like almost anything AR there are a true plethora of aftermarket parts that can solve the issues. Gas blocks, gas restricting tubes, suppressor compatible bolts, charging handles etc. etc.
none of these are really piecing the gun together type stuff as the AR is pretty easy to modify and help is everywhere. And there are suppressors that mitigate the situation by trading something to have less gas blowback.
So net net you probably need some more specificity to your post like caliber, barrel length, basic suppressor parameters and then you will get much more specific help.

I went with an Aero lower and a SIG MCX upper. My approval isn't back yet, so I haven't assembled it or test fired it yet, but I'm excited to try it when approval comes through.

Ugh... I didn't think there was so much involved. This would be a solely 5.56 rifle. I honestly have no clue what my ranking of features.

I would like an 11.5 barrel. It would be nice to keep the weight down and this rifle has a 50/50 chance to be shot inside a residence. I'm not sure if that means I want less noise at the muzzle or just overall quietness.

There really isn't so much involved, but there is likely some tuning involved to make the whole system work well suppressed as there are SO many different suppressor designs.
First, I'm going to assume AR means exactly that and not 'AR' like, meaning no piston uppers or stanag mag guns like a SCAR or Bren.
I have experience in two different short barrel AR's running suppressed. Colt 6933 (meets your 11.5 criteria) and lots more on DD MK18 (slightly shorter). Both will run perfectly fine out of the box. Both will run just fine suppressed and practically speaking were designed to do that. But running surefire cans both can use a little bit of help for long term usability. I change to an H3 buffer. This is literally a 1 minute change. I also have gone to a 'gas busting' charging handle (again less than a minute) and they both are perfectly fine in my use, with my suppressor etc.
If in you case that wasn't enough then you can change bolts or bolt carriers and solve almost any overgassing issues.
At that point you will have invested maybe 5 minutes of time in gun changes and a few rounds of test ammunition.
For your barrel length choice get the colt or a high quality clone and you will be fine. Get a high quality suppressor with a good mounting system and you will be totally happy.

One of my rifles was built and one was a factory Colt 933 former LE gun. Both use a H3 buffer and PRI "gas buster", as mentioned by hrcjon. I also use a Sprinco red spring in the built gun, and a sprinco blue in the 933. The 933 has a Black River gas tube, with a reduced aperture. Both guns use adjustable carriers; a Gemtech in the 933 and a Bootleg in the built gun.

I think hrcjon is right in saying that a contemporary factory upper from a company that's worth a damn will be easily "tuned" for better performance with a silencer. Some companies will make special mention of the upper being built (gassed) in a way that promotes good suppressed performance, or it may have an adjustable block. I think the buffer and spring combos are quite important though, and that happens in the lower.

hrcjon measured tuning impact in minutes; not money. The parts aren't necessarily cheap. If you can stay away from the carriers, you'll be alright though. A H3 and different spring will be between sixty and eighty bucks, depending when/where you get them. The BRT tubes you can only get from one place, and I think they come out to around eighty, after shipping and such. The PRI charging handle is knocking on $100, I think. I'd avoid the Radian handle; I haven't used one, but in examining one, I have no idea where they're venting gas to the atmosphere. PRI is the original, SiCo makes one now, and some DD handles have a vent hole in the right spot.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
Ugh... I didn't think there was so much involved.

There hasn't been in my experience. I have 223 rifles with barrels of 14.5" to 24". I have a 300blk with an 11" barrel.

I shot them suppressed for a few years and many thousand rounds with standard buffers. No functional issues, other than I had to replace the firing pin retaining pins a few times, as they became bent & were a bit difficult to place in the BCG after cleaning. But that's a $1 part. Yeah, the rifles were over gassed a bit, based on shell ejection patterns. No big deal.

As I shot out barrels, I replaced other parts here and there. I went to heavier buffers, which seem to smooth out the cycling impulse a bit. But not a radical difference.

I changed to BCM charging handles with larger latches than the original old-school charging handles. This made is easier for me to work the charging handles with my optics. Supposedly some kind of "gas reduction" handles. Didn't see a difference. And I don't experience gas in the face, either.

Buy what you prefer -- both AR15 and suppressor.
Be aware that a suppressed AR is dirtier in the chamber area. You need regularly cleaning of the BCG, and you need more consistent lubrication.

quote:

No functional issues

I do agree that most quality ARs can be suppressed without huge negative impacts on performance. I do think that the few things mentioned make a meaningful difference; especially if someone is shooting suppressed all the time. If you intend to always use a silencer, there's no good reason not to cater a bit to it, IMO.

quote:

you need more consistent lubrication

This is a good note. I have been using a grease/oil mixture suggested on this very forum (maybe even by fritz) for the past couple years. It has been very good.

quote:

barrels of 14.5" to 24"

Normally I look to fritz to have way more practical experience than me, but in this case I'm going to toss in my experience on shorter barrels. I have a 14.5 pin and weld and it didn't need any real help. But by the time you get down to a 10.3" (MK18) I've found that the few small changes I outlined above make the experience much more pleasant for both me and the gun.

To be fair and balanced, I wasn't trying to overwhelm you with stuff to think about so much as I was trying to point out that there are some considerations. Yes, basically any AR can be shot suppressed, and you can do it with a whole host of suppressors. However, I think it doesn't hurt to dial in your expectations out of the finished setup.

11.5" is the current favorite "if you're going to suppress it" barrel length for 5.56. You don't give up a whole lot. Like KSGM and Jon, it's what I have three times over. I have the least experience of those commenting so far, two cans in jail and probably a couple hundred rounds through several various setups ranging from a Mk18 with an RC2 to a Mk12 with an AEM5. Learning about all this stuff has been my obsession for the last six months, so I'm only that far ahead of you, but I've put a lot of hours in on it.

The cans I'm waiting for the government to decide I can own ( ) are a Griffin Explorr 224 taper mount and an Otter Creek Polonium. The former, I chose for reduced backpressure and I think what might be the lowest in-class weight, and the latter I chose for the versatility and sound reduction. They have pretty similar dimensions, lots of positive reviews, great warranty, and priced pretty competitively. If you're going to look around outside of the "no brainer" cans like the Surefire RC2/3, then SilencerCo, and Rugged are high on that list. I'd learn what you can about mounting solutions, and after that, the big differences are the tubeless and reduced backpressure advances in recent years.

I would not get a Dead Air anything right now, but especially not a Sandman or Sierra-5. For months now, the NFA subreddit has been loaded with threads about people's Dead Air cans shitting crumbled baffles, sometimes in as little as twenty rounds. Apparently three bad batches of Sandman S' to Specwar to boot, so they pissed off both civilian and government customers. Dead Air doesn't make their own cans, KGM does, and they are flat-out ignoring customers who've sent in their cans for warranty. Six plus months without responding is not an isolated incident. They also haven't spoken about this problem publicly, and are ignoring comments and questions. There's a lot of speculation about what's actually going on, and what's going to happen, but it looks real bad for both Dead Air and KGM, and those cans are probably worth avoiding for now.

Outside of that, any suppressor is better than no suppressor, so pick an AR you like, and start looking over the best sellers list on Silencer Shop, watch some reviews and read up.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
11.5" is the current favorite "if you're going to suppress it" barrel length for 5.56.

Source?

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
11.5" is the current favorite "if you're going to suppress it" barrel length for 5.56.

Source?

I think it would easier to just tell me outright that 11.5-12.5" isn't a sweet spot for 5.56 because that would run counter to just about everything I'm seeing on the internet as a whole. From there, it's 14.5" pin and weld if you feel you absolutely have to squeeze every bit of fps you can out of it at the shortest legal length. Under 10.5" doesn't reliably stabilize and your risk of baffle and endcap strikes goes up, and with a suppressed 11.5-12.5" you're still close to or shorter than the same overall length you'd be with an unsuppressed 16" barrel.

I know I'm not teaching you anything, but having the conversation anyway for the OP's sake.

I don't believe there is a sweet spot for suppressing any barrel length of any rifle. The webz are rife with opinions of shooters looking to justify their purchases and opinions.

A number of suppressor companies won't warranty their cans for barrel lengths under 11 inches or so, making this barrel length a cutoff for many SBR decisions. A rifle with a barrel of 11-12 inches is definitely shorter and lighter than a comparable rifle with a 14, 16, or 18 inch barrel. Of course, cans make every AR longer and heavier. A shorter and lighter firearm is easier to move in tight spaces. Those of us who compete in PRS-type and multi-rifle-type matches understand this, given the barriers and movement in stages. But in my experience, when the clock is ticking, a few inches of barrel length here and there rarely make a significant difference in performance.

In my experience, barrel length sweet spot has to do with down-range ballistics -- with or without suppression. If a gun owner is willing to accept reduced velocity/energy/flight for a shorter & lighter rifle, then it's all good for that gun owner. If the owner wants to suppress the SBR, then by matter of manufacturer's support, the shortest barrel is likely in the 11-12 inch ballpark. I don't view that as a sweet spot, but rather a cut off in barrel length options.

Should the gun owner place greater value to velocity/energy/flight, then options can be evaluated fairly easily with the help of ballistics tables. The perceived optimal metrics might occur via a 14" barrel for targets of 0-300 yards, with moderate energy & flight. Or maybe 18" for targets of 0-500 yards, with improved energy & flight. Or possibly a 24" barrel for the guy who's trying to squeeze the last bit of performance from a 223 cartridge.

Well, the big names like Silencerco, YHM, and Surefire have cans that are limited to about 10" barrels, but a number of others now are rated for 7", or completely unrestricted and full auto or even belt fed rated to boot. Rugged, Rex Silentium, Huxwrx, Dead Air, and Griffin's 7.62 and 5.56 cans all have no barrel length restrictions. I am sure there are others, those were just the quick and easy picks. So when you can shoot a can that has no cut off in barrel length options, what do you pick for a barrel length?

I pulled some data and graphed it out. I'm not going to embed, it's just going to take up too much space for an imperfect test, but the data is interesting to look at.

https://i.postimg.cc/mrmSzyNS/1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/KzVrQcWk/2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/cH6BQtFG/3.jpg

When you look at it, some patterns start to emerge. From 10" on down, you lose velocity rapidly. It's a fairly normal increase per inch from 10" to about 13" and a good jump at 14" with M855. 16.5 (which is a weird number to graph vs just 16", but it's what I got pulling from the data set) stands out as the biggest single increase in velocity throughout all the lengths tested with the increases past 20 being... debatable.

So, practical application: if you have an SBR and can shoot any barrel length you want because the can you chose allows it, then it's a matter of inches and ounces and I think some "sweet spots" do emerge. When you go from 10.5" to 11.5" or 12.5", you're not adding a lot in terms of handling, but you are getting anywhere from 100-200fps in velocity. From 13" on, you get some good increases, but if you're going to SBR a rifle (or use it as a pistol), then you might as well go shorter than a barrel length you could just pin and weld for, right? You could pay your $200 to have a 13.7" or 14.5" that you don't pin and weld just so you can easily change muzzle devices, but most people don't have money to throw around like that. I have a 14.5" pin and weld and it handles more like the 16" I have. The 11.5" inch gun with an A2 length muzzle device feels like a much smaller package overall and doesn't give up a whole lot of velocity vs 14".

This is another chart, but it agrees with the data I'm seeing elsewhere. Peaks at 11" and 20". Neat article about barrel length and trajectory here.


I dunno, I went through this logic exercise myself over this last year trying to pick barrel lengths and cans, so I don't fully agree with you. I didn't feel limited in barrel length choices because the cans I was interested in just outright remove that concern. I don't see a lot of advantage for going longer than 12" or so for an SBR with a suppressor, and too many drawbacks when going shorter than 10" with both the sharper drops in velocity and increased risk of baffle strikes. 11.5" isn't much more than 10.5" in terms of handling, and when I tried out a 12.5" upper, it seemed like I was going in the wrong direction. Some genuine Goldilocks stuff, yes. If you want to speak about it in terms of raw data and performance, maybe 11.5" isn't a "sweet spot" per se, but when you roll that in with the practical considerations like hanging a suppressor off the end of it, plus the intangibles such as "feel," then I think it does emerge as such. It did for me, anyway, and I see that for others. Now, that said, I do have a 16" rifle that I intend to set up to be suppressed essentially full time - The Griffin can will essentially become a part of it. All the optimizing of barrel length nonsense will totally go out the window on that one at 21" overall, and it's going to feel like a musket compared to my SBR's. And that's fine.

Maybe it's justification, maybe it's quibbling, maybe it's all just pissing in the wind. It makes for an interesting discussion anyway. It's like the 2020's version of 9mm vs 45.

quote:

Surefire have cans that are limited to about 10" barrels

I want to just expand on this just because I think surefire cans are an outstanding option that people should consider and point out that the SB2 has no barrel restrictions and its what I use on a MK18 (10.3).

Me personally I think the perfect length is 13.14159" but sadly nobody makes one.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Me personally I think the perfect length is 13.14159" but sadly nobody makes one.

You got a hacksaw?

Keep in mind that a .223/5.56 round, regardless of barrel length, is still going to be supersonic, i. e., faster than the speed of sound. So you're going to hear the miniature sonic boom of the round being fired, even through a suppressor.

If you really want quiet, go with .300 Blackout with a 180+ grain bullet, or a 9mm pistol or carbine using 147 grain bullets (the most common suppressed calibers).

I went through exactly what you're going through, and was really hesitant of jumping in the suppressor game until Dead Air Silencers came to demo their line at a local range. I was stunned by how quiet 9mm and .300 Blackout are. A hoot to shoot. I now have several in NFA jail waiting on tax stamps.

If you can, find a local range that will demo some for you. That will give you an idea which way you want to go.

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
Ugh... I didn't think there was so much involved. This would be a solely 5.56 rifle. I honestly have no clue what my ranking of features.

I would like an 11.5 barrel. It would be nice to keep the weight down and this rifle has a 50/50 chance to be shot inside a residence. I'm not sure if that means I want less noise at the muzzle or just overall quietness.

I would say IME a suppressor still makes a drastic difference, even with supers.

If I had to fire a centerfire rifle with no hearing protection indoors, I would even take a crappy can instead of no can at all FWIW, IMO.