Over the past couple years, I have been focusing heavily on trying to tweak and tune different weapons, in an effort to optimize them for use with a silencer. I have experimented with piston guns in the Sig 55X and AR platform, and DI guns. I have yet to arrive at any definitive conclusions, but have certainly made some progress. I am curious what other folks have experienced. I am looking for feedback from people that shoot almost exclusively with silencers, as I believe those people have the feedback I will find most valuable. What guns, parts, tweaks, and tunes have proven to work best with a silencer for you? I am primarily looking for feedback on semi-auto carbines in 5.56, and my emphasis is certainly not on decibels. I am primarily concerned with weapon cleanliness, weapon function, recoil, and gas exhaust. I don't care if the weapon works both with and without a silencer, as I don't use a gun without one. I am sure I will refine my parameters as folks reply, as I can't ever seem to think of everything up front. I should also emphasize my prioritization of shorter guns. I know a 20" AR15 with rifle-length gas is going to have pretty good silencer performance in regards to all my priorities; that is not the gun I am talking about here. The distance from bolt face to the end of the can should not exceed 18 inches. I look forward to your replies! I hope to hear from rustpot and hrcjon, as I have previously gotten the impression that they likely have some good info on this. Of course I encourage participation from anyone with relevant feedback.This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,
|hello darkness |
my old friend
My favorite suppressed firearm is my Sig 553 in 300 blackout. Sweet suppression with the subs. Still way fun to shoot with the supers.
I am gonna put together one of those myself sometime in the not-to-distant future, on a US receiver. Should be cool.
I have revised the thread title moving forward, though, as my intent was to focus on 5.56 carbines, in the context of a practical/tactical "go-to" rifle. Of course calibers like .300BO are sweet suppressed, but it isn't realistic as a primary weapon in most scenarios, mainly due to ammo cost and availability, especially in a SHTF scenario.
|hello darkness |
my old friend
well if we are talking about 556 I love my BCM 10.5" AR15 with my Silencer co Specwar 556. Its a bit gassy for a can but I'm a lefty shooting with my eyes right next to the ejection port so there is only so much you can do. This rifle has the gemtech bolt for suppressed shooting which helps a bit.
|hello darkness |
my old friend
well if we are talking about 556 I love my BCM 10.5" AR15 with my Silencer co Specwar 556. Its a bit gassy for a can but I'm a lefty shooting with my eyes right next to the ejection port so there is only so much you can do. This rifle has the gemtech bolt for suppressed shooting which helps a bit. It is very accurate with the can with no poi shift on this gun. It is my night vision and bed side rifle.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: gw3971,
I have several suppressed 5.56 guns. All are 11.5" and 12.5". They're all dirty as sin (including an MCX that was not dirty unsuppressed). Run a heavy buffer in your gas guns (I am H3 and A5H3 in mine), a proper extra power spring, and have an appropriately sized gas port. Some 10.3" barrel makers are known for using an oversized port that is simply not conducive to suppressed use. I am also partial to adjustable bolt carriers (Gemtech or Bootleg) to regulate gas some. I find them to be relatively "not gassy."
That is refreshing to see. I have not shot an MCX suppressed, but I have shot other short-stroke and long stroke piston guns suppressed; a piston, even with adjustability, is not the magic fix. Lately I have actually been favoring the 10" DI gun mentioned in this thread.
I am assuming you use a gasbuster CH as well. If you don't, definitely try one. I have done side-by-side comparisons, and they absolutely work.
I find the Gemtech carrier to be a bit "under-vented". I am sure they played it safe with their design, to ensure reasonably good results across a wide spectrum of setups.
You might try modifying your own milspec carrier. Any competent gunsmith or machinist can do it; hell, you may be able to. In making your own, you could angle the vent hole forward more, which may help your left-handed situation. I intend to make another, with an angled vent, for myself. I think the hole I ended up with in the gun I am using is .090".
Doesn't fit the 18" max overall barrel length. My best performing suppressed .556 is a 12.5".
Put a couple suppressor only SBR uppers together a couple years ago. Neither will come close to functioning w/o the can, which is exactly what I wanted. Have a couple thousand rounds on each, mostly 77TMK/SMK handloads, both 100% reliable. If I were to do it again, would have had two 12.5" barrels chambered. The 12.5" cycles a fair amount smoother then the 11.5" and the added velocity... 12.5" rivals my 20" rifle length bare barrel for smooth cycling. From shooting these two uppers and others suppressed 10.3/10.5", believe 12.5" is the sweet spot.
That thread is full of great info. Thanks for that. You already did exactly what I am after. I am in the process of building a gun very similar to the one I mention in this thread, but with a mid-length gas, in hopes that I can get more performance while maintaining the pleasant suppressed characteristics. I am not going anywhere near the pro-level of your build though; I am using all retail components, with some modification.
What does the bolt to muzzle length of that 12.5 end up being? Does it exceed 18" only because that can is a bit longer than others? 18" isn't some kind of requirement for me; it's just what I came up with, in an effort to narrow the discussion a bit. For example: If 19" is what it takes for the ideal performance, then 19" it is.
|hello darkness |
my old friend
I have picked up a couple of bootleg carriers. I haven't had a chance to to get out and give them a chance yet.
|hello darkness |
my old friend
That might be the ticket for me. Venting the port forward I would think help a bunch.
SCAR, why more people don't figure out how to have the option to pick your gas port size eludes me.
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
Most lack the creativity and/or initiative. I have even heard tell of people shying away from suppressing the SCAR due to some stipulations in FN's warranty. The SCAR is probably a great suppressed gun. I unfortunately didn't prioritize silencer use, when I had a 16s.
My advice would be to find a gunsmith that you trust and have them build one to your specs. I followed a bunch of "big name" 'smiths and a few unknown guys on social media. One in particular is about the most OCD person I've ever met. (He's local.) He hadn't built any guns at the time..mostly just fixing the f'ups from other people...but I managed to get lucky and grab his first build. Knowing it'd have a can on it 100% of the time, he tuned everything with that in mind. When suppressed, the difference between his gun and all of my other top-shelf ARs (KAC, LMT, LWRC, 2A Armament) is night and day. A perfectly tuned gun is a thing to behold. It sits front row in my safe.
Trajectory Arms (IG: @trajectoryarms)
Can you share anything about the build? Tricks or a combination of components used to achieve the excellent result?
I don't think there's any "secret sauce" per se. Just having the gun properly gassed seems the biggest difference. I don't know the formula for it, but having the right variables (i.e., correct size gas hole, barrel length, spring, buffer weight) all lining up correctly really makes a noticeable difference. My 2A Armament comes close...that gun had an adjustable BCG and the JP captured buffer has about 6 or 8 springs you can play with...but it's a PITA to get right and isn't quite "there". I'm not sure it ever will be, but it's still a great gun.
I guess my only takeaway for the OP is that a good gunsmith who knows 'how' the gun will be used can make a world of difference.
So you don't necessarily know the stats on that particular build, I guess, because the smith built it; gotcha.
Here's what I know (ripped from his site):
Zev receiver set provides for excellent consistency and fitment. Care was taken not to disturb the fitment between the receivers or interfere with the function of other parts during Cerakote. Critical dimensions and holes were masked or plugged off and then lapped to make sure everything fit right.
12.5″ Carbine SOLGW Combat Grade barrel. Proof tested, Magnetic particle inspected, dimpled, and special attention paid to the gas port sizing. We also went ahead and de-burred and mirror polished the feed ramps.
SLR ION Lite 11.7″ MLOK rail.
Forward Controls Design GBF gas block is held to much tighter tolerances for an extremely efficient gas seal. Its installed with knurled tip set screws and red loctite, then pinned with a heavy duty coiled spring pin for extra measure.
Melonite gas tube is held within .001″ tolerances and checked for alignment with the gas key on the bolt carrier.
Trajectory Arms BCG
Dead Air Keymount muzzle brake
Radian LT ambidextrous charging handle
FCD LDFA-AA forward assist
Badger Ordnance safety selector and bolt catch
SOLGW lower parts
FCD PF-040 extended pivot and takedown pins
Reptilia CQG grip
Trajectory Arms enhanced trigger
FCD TGF trigger guard
FCD CNF torqued to spec and staked to ensure it wont back off
B5 systems QD end plate
VLTOR A5 buffer system with A5H2 and Sprinco Green action spring optimizes reliability and negates the need to swap buffers when adding a suppressor.
Dead Air Sandman S suppressor
Law Tactical folding stock adapter
Magpul CTR stock
If there's anything specific you'd like to know I can ask the gunsmith. He's a pretty good guy and is really building a good reputation for himself.
Beauty of a build, pcshooter. Trajectory Arms posts in some of the manufacturer groups I follow in other places, so I'm a bit familiar and everything I've seen from them has been top notch. Their inspected gas tube would be my selection right now if I needed to order a tube.
SOLGW spec's a .068" port on their 12.5 barrels. I don't have access to my files to know how that compares to others. From the build notes I'm not sure if you got a barrel with a custom port or not.
I have their barrels in my 13.7 suppressed build, and an 11.5 that it likely getting stripped and rehomed in the scheme of projects.
The 11.5 is getting replaced by a Sionics Enhanced Reduced Gas Port (ERGP) 11.5" that I'm hoping is a little easier to tame. SOLGW sticks to CRANE ports and similar gassing for other lengths, which is great for a combat build that has ample gas and ample mass to drive the system.
My current favorite is a 12.5" midlength from Centurion. I didn't measure the port and I didn't ask for anything special, but this so far has been a very sweet and soft shooter with little gas escaping. It may be a bit more finicky being a midlength, but I feed it 5.56 mostly and the only hangup I've had was with the BCG caked in carbon and dry as a bone. I think it's got an H2 + Sprinco blue behind it? I haven't looked in a while.
Oh, and I'm left handed as well, and you can absolutely build a direct impingement/traditional AR that doesn't gas you to shit. Adjustable carriers still bring the same amount of gas into the action, they're just venting some of it away from the bolt. Where does that redirected carbon jet go?
If you want to get tuning I'd suggest picking up a set of pin gauges, and stick to one system of adjusting. Don't change gas blocks and buffers and springs and carriers. Seal up the gas system, know how your parts fit, shoot it, and adjust one thing at a time.
I use Sprinco buffer springs. They're consistent, they'll probably outlast me, and they come in something like 6 different spring rates. $20 each.
I use carbine buffer weights. H1, H2, H3. I also use A5 buffer weights, A5H1, A5H2, A5H3, haven't needed an A5 in H4 or H5 yet. A5 only gives you two spring options (GI and Sprinco green), but it makes up for it with 5 weights.
Rule of thumb on a LAW folder: decrease buffer by 1 weight to account for the plug mass.
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