I've always been enamored with the idea of an integrally suppressed firearm. The MP5SD and the DeLisle have always fascinated me. Earlier this year, a friend built up a proper MP5SD clone with a HiTec can, and it is very quiet and a lot of fun. Another friend has a modern take on the DeLisle concept with an integrally suppressed 9mm bolt gun he had Huntertown Arms build him off a 22 TCM action that's no louder with 115gr than a pellet rifle. A few weeks back, yet another friend brought out his new build that's got a CMMG Colt lower and a Broad River Tactical SD upper with suppressor adapter and his CAT MOB on it. We swapped that out for my Stealth Additive 9mm prototype and it was both silly quiet and incredibly smooth shooting. With the FRT flipped to giggle mode, I dumped a whole magazine of 115gr out of it on a 12x20 steel silhouette at about 20 yards in a few super-controllable long bursts. It just chugged along at about 750rpm and the dot just jiggled around in the middle of the target. It was the quietest thing at a private shoot with a suppressor industry guy and a suitcase full of toys.

Shooting these did not at all help curb the desire. I have enough cans now that "all the bases are covered" from .22 to .30 cal, so I think it's about time to scratch the integral itch.

For the sake of cost of shooting, I want to limit myself to 9mm. It makes the most sense of all the calibers, really. The real question comes down to what I'd want to reasonably do with it or expect from it: Accuracy and small game hunting type stuff, or just for the giggles and grins? I'm thinking solidly the latter. So, to me, that says a semi-auto. No, it won't be as whisper quiet as a bolt gun, but really... I'm not sure I care.

So, to the action type and what it'll feed from. The simple answer is an MP5 clone of some kind, but I don't want one. Every time I shoot a suppressed MP5 type, yeah, they're quiet, but I hate everything else about them. MP5's are really cool, but I don't enjoy them and I'm trying to get away from owning guns that are cool or interesting that I don't shoot. There's the B&T options, but I don't want to spend three grand on this, and additionally, I've shot both a GHM9SD and an APC9SD, and actually didn't particularly like either of them.

I think the process of elimination on what's actually currently available has led me to a franken build type with a CMMG RDB action paired with a Broad River Tactical barrel, SD handguard, and their suppressor adapter with my can. What's left is the upper and lower and what it'll feed from. I'm leaning towards either a Wraithworks Warscorp9 (I think it looks like ass and the name is retarded, but they'll run the RDB, and they feed from Scorpion Pmags), or a PSA ARV upper and lower, but then I'm into PSA's "quality control by volume - you'll eventually get a good one" game of chance bullshit. Additionally, I have a Super Safety and an Atrius Super Selektor, and I want the thing to run with one or the other, I don't really care which. The Warscorp is verified to do this well. New Frontier Armory was making Scorpion magazine AR lowers until about a year ago, and it looks like Evolution X Defense bought up the remainder of their billets and now offer that lower as the XK9. I could probably do one of those with just the pre-built BRT upper and call it good as well.

Yes, I'm aware this is trying to get a whole bunch of oddball stuff to work together, but honestly, I think a lot of that is just the nature of the beast with the integral 9mm game. There aren't a lot of "off the shelf" options out there, and the ones that do are up in the high $2k to mid $3k price range. I'm aware I can also just throw the CMMG stuff into a plain Jane AR lower and use the Mean Arms magazine options, and honestly, I actually will probably do that initially, but I want to eventually get it running with Scorpion Pmags. Yes, they're just that good.

So what integrally suppressed ventures have you guys taken on? What did you do, how did it work out, and knowing what you know now, what would you do different, if anything? Pictures and commentary encouraged.

I have zero dog in this as I don't have an integrally suppressed anything and live in a 2A hostile state so I can't really ever anymore, BUT THAT SAID; you 100% need to do the H&K MP5SD thing. Mostly because I can't and by God I need to live vicariously through somebody until I win the lottery.

I love it when you go all wonky on building something. Usual case I've never heard of at least 70% of the vendors you are discussing. and 20% of the rest I wouldn't trust quality wise.
So have fun. But in any case I personally think the B&T is the way to go. But I also built an MPX version using the ILWT barrel and that setup is pretty 'modern' compared to the HK options.
And there are people who make an adapter for that barrel that let you use a normal suppressor till B&T eventually gets around to building you an MP5SD style suppressor... (approaching a year on my latest order)

I was issued a MP5SD3 for a little while years ago. It was the cool guy gun of the cool guys. I fell in love with them after watching Navy SEALs back in the day.

You may want to consider a B&T APC9-SD. Integrally suppressed like the MP5SD so you can shoot 115 grain or 124 grain 9x19 ammo without wearing hearing protection.

You can get the APC9-SD using B&T magazines or get the lower (pistol grip) that uses Glock magazines. And unlike the MP5SD (which I have), the B&T bolt locks back on the last round, which helps with faster reloads.

I have seen there are companies that can "SD" the SIG MPX, I may do that next year.

He nixed the B&T on cost in the post, but it is the way to go (per my post and yours). But the easy way is never, ever the P220Smudge way...
The MPX is an option but its not fully the equal of the B&T. If you are thinking of doing one order the B&T can now, it will take awhile!

hrcjon,

I see that now, I missed it earlier about the B&T in his post. Deals can be found on them if the price is an issue, but other than that, I think they are greater shooters. And as an SOT, I have both full auto and semi auto. I think they are great!

I'm a B&T addict. I would love to just have an opportunity to shoot a APC-9SD full auto. Bucket list item for sure...

Well, my friend who owns the B&T integrals and MP5SD clone and I are going out to to the desert early tomorrow morning to scout a spot for an upcoming night shoot. I'll see if he's up for bringing some of them out to play. Of the "easy mode" suggestions, I have to admit that while I've shot them and was impressed with the quality, none of these really grabbed me the way the AR9 integral did. Like... I've tried all these and the one end result that appealed the most was the one that involves more hoop-jumping to get to. An MP5SD clone is three grand right off the bat and requires tuning it around the ammo with various degree rollers per my friend. The B&T's just run, yes, and I'm not going to totally discount them if the process of elimination leaves them as the winner. I was never interested in owning a Glock and an intellectually honest range day conclusively showed me they were the best choice for me, so I became a Glock shooter kicking and screaming - there's enough precedent there for the B&T options to get the nod. If I'm going to go over three grand on this, they'd probably be the choice just by dint of being the more modern answer to the question, and lending themselves more readily to shooting with NODs. You can slap all the NV shit on an MP5, but it's more work to get it right and gets expensive fast, and that's according to at least four guys in my group who went that route.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I love it when you go all wonky on building something.

So have fun.

But the easy way is never, ever the P220Smudge way...

Oh, please. Nearly everything in my safe is in stock condition or has only OEM parts. I turd-polished the two CZ's to the max and then sold them. The Scorpion I took in trade and was never really happy with, and the other I sold mainly because CZ is going to totally drop their non-existent support of the Bren 2 the instant they start importing the 3 and I don't want to get caught holding the bag. The one gun I still own that I went full custom on is my Stribog, and again, that one because the factory straight mags are dogshit. If the implication there is that the easy route was an MP5 clone, I'll just say that after growing up on an HK91, I'm really not a huge fan of that family of guns and wanted to keep using my pile of Scorpion magazines because it was easier than sourcing new magazines. I haven't even "tuned" my main suppressed AR out of sheer laziness. I love to tinker, but if you've formed the impression that I have some sort of innate need to do everything the hard way, you've got me totally wrong.

Three grand plus for a 9mm gun is a lot of fucking money any way you look at it, plus a stock (B&T stock money at that), plus magazines (or in my case, a friggin' Lingle lower which at this point, would actually be taking the easy way out on some of my complaints about the B&T's). With sales tax and shipping, it's probably closer to four grand all-in. If I could be happy with the results spending half that, I'm going to investigate those options. I'd be stupid not to. I'll never give someone the fish eye for being able to comfortably drop APC9SD money without a second thought, I'm not that guy, so please don't give me shit in the other direction.

I think generally speaking, you mean well and I enjoy most of our exchanges on this forum, but I gotta tellya, whether it's intentional or not, sometimes you come across as a raging ballbag. Maybe it's just the tone over text thing, I don't know. I've had plenty of other people tell me the same thing.

it was completely tongue in cheek!
sorry that it didn’t translate that way
and came across as anything but that.

Ok, that was my hope, I just wanted to make sure. I'm good with flipping some shit back and forth.

I value your experience and your input on things, so don't take this as me sticking my fingers in my ears. I don't want the B&T's to be the answer because the fucking sticker shock is intense, but if that really just is the way the world turns, then I guess I'll just to have to take a deep breath and break out the Vaseline.

Good luck with whichever path you go down. I have no trigger time with B&T’s, but the MP5SD with fixed stock I shot in Vegas was an absolute treat. I thought my 5.5” AR 9mm with Ti-Rant was ‘staple gun’ quiet, but that SD was waaaaaay quieter and had no muzzle rise on full auto.

Until H&K offers it, a factory SD is out of the question. All peon-accessible SD’s are clones, even if built with all German H&K parts, so the HiTech conversions in the $3k’s are appealing. But…they, and any integrally suppressed sub-gun, require far more cleaning and maintenance time than I can currently give them. They all get dirtier far quicker than a PCC with can mounted.

Hopefully you can find a good AR upper that has an easy to clean suppressor. The joy gets lost in spending more time cleaning hardware than shooting it.

Due to the cost of entry into the SD market, I’m considering building one from the Novox Research X-SD kit. Looks like the absolute basement floor, cost wise.

Particularly, the AR9 kit. Looking at the Aero Glock EPC lower, then the EPC enhanced upper, since their enhanced hand guard has a pretty large diameter. I can then use Wolfman.

Yeah, I've been following the Novox since before he announced it at SHOT. My friend with all the other integrals is building one up with the Alpha pattern version on my old Scorpion. We're gonna see how it sounds soon.

We took his CAR-SD out the other day. He had issues with the bolt not picking up rounds from the magazine. He thinks it may be the particular lower he used and wants to try a different one, something about the magazine release. He also said he regrets going with the RDB system, at least the original version. Apparently there's a newer version with a fixed ejector that he said he'd go with over the other if he was starting fresh. His HTA 12" can is comically quiet.

Relevant: Some of the options we're discussing here, including the B&T Print X integral can, and a Wolfman and CAT MOB on the BRT adapter. There's an AR9-SD pictured with the group that he doesn't shoot in the video, but damn if that setup isn't calling my name. Hopefully pretty soon, I'll get to do an A/B with the CAT MOB and my prototype can, possibly next weekend.



Oh, as for cleaning, I've determined that a few day's soak in Breakthrough suppressor cleaner followed by a hot water ultrasonic dip for about fifteen minutes will get cans factory fresh. It's minimal work. I think these days, an ultrasonic cleaner is basically required gear if you're doing much shooting suppressed. The guns themselves, I'm just spraying out with carburetor cleaner to get most of the crap out of them and maybe a deep clean about once a year.

I hadn't even considered 9mm or larger calibers, but that's interesting.

As soon as I heard about Ruger's 10/22 Integrally Suppressed Barrel, I began a quest to find one. I finally found one, and haven't even tried it out yet.