The Honjo Masamune is a legendary samurai sword produced by Japan's most renown swordmaker, Goro Nyudo Masamune (what, you thought it was Hattori Hanzo? ), sometime around 1300 AD. Battle-proven for hundreds of years, it is said by some to be the most perfect sword ever created.

It is missing. It may have been destroyed in the post-war Allied occupation of Japan. It may be at the bottom of Tokyo Bay. It may also have been taken to America by a mysterious sergeant (many of the country's swords that weren't destroyed as part of the peace treaty were taken back to the US. Firearms as well). The only thing known for sure is that nobody knows for certain what exactly happened to it. Perhaps it's in someone's garage or attic, languishing amongst vinyl records and old clothing. Maybe it's in your garage.

If it is, you could be sitting on a historical artifact worth many millions of dollars. Time to comb through those old boxes?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,

How much would that sword really be worth?
Whoever had it would be morally and probably legally required to return it to its proper owner. If that couldn’t be determined, it would be a Japanese national treasure and therefore would belong to the nation. Someone might get a finder’s fee, and perhaps a large one, but millions?

Interesting story, though.

The actual auction value of the sword (not a finder's fee) varies widely from tens of millions to indeed, one billion dollars. And Japan was required to relinquish all claims of ownership as put forth in the peace treaty. It would be up to the new owner if they wished to return it to its country of origin.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
And Japan was required to relinquish all claims of ownership as put forth in the peace treaty.

Ah, okay. Thanks.

So they gave up rights to everything that may have been plundered from the country—or was it only something like swords?
Was there a time limit to when that was in effect?

Added: Now you’ve piqued my curiosity, and I tried to find the provision of the treaty you referred to. Wikipedia has this:

“In accordance with Article 14 of the Treaty, Allied forces confiscated all assets owned by the Japanese government, firms, organization and private citizens, in all colonized or occupied countries except China, which was dealt with under Article 21.” [Emphasis added.]

I didn’t, however, find any similar provision pertaining to property in Japan itself, which is where I assume the sword in question would have been located. Can you provide a link to the treaty provision that did apply to property in Japan?

Well, I've never read the actual treaty, I only know of it. I remember something about an order that mentioned swords and firearms specifically.

I had a professor in college who had been part of the Allied occupation in Japan. He said all officers were required to bring one sword back to the US. So he picked one out of a pile and left. He brought it to class one day, and did express an interest in returning it to its original owner or his family. 99% chance it was only a mass-produced for the war "gunto" and was essentially worthless, maybe a few hundred dollars, but you never know.

The treaty of San Francisco is available online, and I believe this section from Article 14 is most applicable to what you’re referring to.

“2. (I) Subject to the provisions of sub-paragraph (II) below, each of the
Allied Powers shall have the right to seize, retain, liquidate or otherwise dispose
of all property, rights and interests of
(a) Japan and Japanese nationals,
(b) persons acting for or on behalf of Japan or Japanese nationals, and
(c) entities owned or controlled by Japan or Japanese nationals,
which on the first coming into force of the present Treaty were subject to its
jurisdiction. The property, rights and interests specified in this sub-paragraph
shall include those now blocked, vested or in the possession or under the control of
enemy property authorities of Allied Powers, which belonged to, or were held or
managed on behalf of, any of the persons or entities mentioned in (a), (b) or (c)
above at the time such assets came under the controls of such authorities.”

There are many exceptions cited, and there is much other somewhat opaque (to me) language regarding property, but any right to seize property was invested in the “Allied Powers.” I doubt that anyone, even in late 1945, would have argued that it permitted someone like Private Snuffy to put a valuable sword in his duffle bag to take home. If MacArthur had the sword seized as a war trophy to be exhibited in the West Point museum, that would have been one thing, but obviously that wasn’t what happened.

If in fact seized swords were distributed to officers, then that is a possibility of how the sword could legitimately be in the hands of someone outside Japan. I however find it odd that anyone would have been “required” to take a sword and strikes me as possibly a self-serving excuse, but I wasn’t there and I admit that stranger orders have been issued.

Anyway, thanks for piquing my interest in a subject I knew little about.

I was reading about this the other day and figured it's probably here in the states, likely in the inherited estate of someone who passed without telling anyone what it was. May have popped up in an estate sale or garage sale some time in recent years, or soon to.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
99% chance it was only a mass-produced for the war "gunto" and was essentially worthless, maybe a few hundred dollars, but you never know.

Even gunto are starting to command some prices. You might be surprised.

I was actually friends with that professor, and it was pretty clear he really didn't want it, and was just following orders. He never tried to sell it, and seemed earnest in wanting to actually return it.

As far as the Honjo sword, the rumor goes that a sergeant took it to be destroyed, but instead may have stuffed it into his duffel and brought it home with him. I think that happened a lot, and probably no-one really cared. I know there are far more authentic Japanese swords in the US than in Japan. Most of them did wind up here if they weren't destroyed.

I've casually seen some gunto going for $1000-1500, but yes I'm sure some valuations have gotten up there. And there's always the chance of a "hybrid" gunto- an ancestral blade that was refitted with modern furniture to allow an officer to carry it in service.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kkina,

It’s interesting to think about things like that.

In 1966 or ’67 when I was stationed in the DC area, I bought a sword at a yard sale for $5. A co-worker friend who had been an exchange student in Japan before his enlistment said it was a typical Japanese NCO sword, and expressed some interest in it. When I was reassigned I gave it to him, but it’s one of those “Where is it now?” things I think about from time to time.

It is, isn't it? My own family has a lost sword story. My grandfather's 350-year old katana was "confiscated" for safety reasons when he entered a nursing home. OK, fine, but when my father inquired as to its actual whereabouts, they "didn't know."

My father returned with various items he’d picked up both “in the field” and from the first months of the occupation.
Among them were a pistol, bolt action rifle and an officer’s sword.

My first memories of them was the late’50’s. He traded them for various things that had more interest to him in the early 60’s.

He had a pretty good eye for quality so I’d doubt anything like that sword was in those it. He did mention that the pistols were almost as dangerous to the shooter as the shooters target and unreliable.

In case you do find an old sword in the attic trunk, there is a straighforward way to verify it as the Honjo Masamune. Normally the swordsmith would chisel his name on the sword's tang, but Masamune was a humble man and rarely signed his works. However, all Japanese swords have a distinct and unique fingerprint- the temper line, more correctly called the hamon.

Since the hamon pattern was applied by hand, each one is unique. While no-one in feudal Japan had a digital camera, they did have artists, and down through the centuries numerous detailed drawings of the Honjo sword were made.

If your sword has markings identical to the ones in this drawing, you might want to schedule a visit to your nearest rare sword expert.


honjo-masamune-hamon.webp by kpkina, on Flickr

That's quite the hamon. Wild choji.

I watch this YouTube channel often.
In this episode (actually 2 episodes) he buys a 1600's Japanese sword and pays about $800 for it.
I almost gagged when I heard him offer the seller that amount and the seller accepting the offer.
The buyer thought he could sell it for about $1800 as is or if he sent it to Japan for restoration and verification, a long process as in years.
After that if it checks out he could expect about a 18,000 return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN3IYJkJ2So

Yeah, if you look around, there's all kinds of really old nihonto floating around on the secondary market, some of them for surprisingly cheap. The difference is, many of them have not been cared for, and unless you really know what you're looking at, it's an absolute gamble at best. Rusty, scratched, and even chipped blades in many cases. They can be restored to new condition, but quality sword polishers have queues of years, and they charge big chunks of money to do it, too. A poor or even less-than-perfect polish won't improve the value and could ruin it, so there's zero point in cheaping out on it. But yes, there's opportunities to pick up potentially historically significant nihonto, and thus make a really solid investment if you know what you're looking at and are willing to play the long game. There's a guy on the r/katana subreddit last week who picked up a 1300's naginata that had been cut down into a wakizashi that was in amazing shape and had a beautiful horimono (decorative engraving on the blade itself, not just the tang), and he paid I think under $500. Deals are out there. Finding the Honjo Masamune in an estate or yard sale is the dream of probably a lot of folks here with more than a passing interest in nihonto, and in the hunt, there's other gems to be found.

Honestly, I've wanted a real deal katana since I was a child. I'm about as far from a weeb as it gets, but the stigma kept me away. The older I get, the less I care what people think and am more about pursuing my interests regardless, so the hunt begins this year. I'm in the "learning as much as I can so I don't get totally screwed" part of the process at the moment.

kkina, any suggestions for resources beyond what simple googling has brought me? Apologies if this tangent is too much of a derailment.

Not seeing one and I looked all over.

quote:

kkina, any suggestions for resources beyond what simple googling has brought me?

Not really. I don't know much more than you do at this point. I'm not a sword collector per se, but you just hear things over the years.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Not really. I don't know much more than you do at this point. I'm not a sword collector per se, but you just hear things over the years.

Yeah, fair enough.

Link had a warning for me but I opened it after a "copy link". No problem

Estley Schick was a teacher at my high school. Wonderful man. Singer too. And sword collector

http://www.ibdennis.com/EstleySchick%201102a.pdf

Wonderful story, thanks. Yep, some 3 million swords came over to the US.