My FIL died of IPF, the same disease that killed our own Jim Allen. When he was in the hospital for the last time, he asked to see me.

I sat beside him and held his hand for a while. Finally he said he thought he had taken care of everything the he could take care of. He asked me to help out his wife if needed, then laid his head back on the pillow.

After I left, per his instructions, they increased his morphine dose and stopped supplemental oxygen.

In a hospital? No way.

My dad recently passed. During his life, he was a very accomplished and dignified man.

As the end neared, he got Leukemia (the chemo is what killed him though) he handled one undignified event after another. Not being able to walk well, falling, shitting and pissing himself etc. He wanted to die at home, but he passed before we could bring him home.

I know he felt embarrassed and horrible when nurses had to clean him and he had no control over it. I saw the embarrassment and sadness in his eyes. I felt terrible for him, but in my eyes, he’ll always be the dignified man who raised me to be the man I am, accomplished what he did in life, and helped create the family that he did.

In retrospect, I would have forgone the chemo treatments and not listen to what the bonehead doctors said (he was 78 and the doctors said that he’d be able to survive chemo treatments 5 days a week for 8 weeks ). We should have just let him die at home in peace in his bed watching his favorite old movies and drinking his favorite beer.

Don't confuse the term "dignity" with the cosmetic features you may have seen in a movie version of death. I'd substitute "without being in denial" for the term dignity. Dying is most often not pretty.
I've been around some (and many family members) who just won't give it up when it's clear that it's over and spending their remaining time making things unnecessarily miserable for all. I'm not talking about giving it a good fight and making an effort to overcome their health problems.
To me it's having quality of life, not measured in length, and knowing where the balance is for all concerned.
There are statistics that show a tremendous part of medical spending is on the last months of life. Aside from just the money aspect, this just shows how much needless discomfort people will go through for a variety of reasons.

To me, dignity is about how I lived.

Is it possible to die with dignity? Absolutely!

My sister died of cancer, it took quite a while. We live 3000 miles from where she was, and one day we/I got a phone call. It was my mom who was helping take care of Sis. Sis wanted to call and tell us "goodby". It was hard to understand her but we got it done. She died a couple days later.

My best friend and neighbor here was dying of cancer. He knew it. They had run him thru chemo, radiation treatment, etc. To the point he had radiation burns around his neck and shoulders.

I would spend time with him every day. We would just sit together on his front porch and chat about all kinds of stuff. One day, he asked me what he should do about his situation. Told him I could not tell him what to do, but I could tell him what I would do. He asked, and I told him that I would stop that chemo and radiation and let it happen. He did so, and went peacefully a few days later. I still tear up thinking about Pete. Huge friend, great wood cutting buddy. I still miss him, too.

Is it possible to die with dignity? Absolutely. But that dignity MUST be defined by the person facing that decision!!

I think medicine with its ability to keep people alive beyond what it should be is what strips the dignity from death.

For me, when my time is here, I'd like to be able to walk out into the prairie, find a comfortable spot, and die. If they find my bones, fine, if they don't, fine.

Several years ago I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. 10 of 12 samples revealed cancer.

My doctor told me not to be afraid. He was kind of stunned when I looked at him and said I am not afraid, I know where I am going when I die.

After 39 days of radiation treatment the cancer was gone. Note! The radiation used was X-ray, not "hot" radiation.

Only side effects were "tiredness" but not sure if it was from the treatment or the daily traffic battle getting to the treatment center.

I can VERY highly recommend that form of treatment. As I said above, it uses X-rays.

Called IMRT, Intensity Modulated Radiation Therapy.

The responses have been valued. It would be difficult to explain my question without introducing bias into the possible responses which is why I have posed it as I have.

Some replies have given me more to reflect upon, for example, I am not sure if I am asking from the perspective of someone dying or the feelings or labels placed on the dying by the living.

On some level it is simply the observation of how one might struggle with accepting help or being a burden on others during the process of dying.

At that point where the spirit is gone and the shell remains, does that shell have dignity? Does the spirit regret the burden(s) the shell might require?

Yep, for those keeping score and connecting dots, there is a motivator behind these musings.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
My wife had to whisper in my dad’s ear, “your wife’s taken care of; we’ll look after her. Your son is able to take care of himself.”

My BIL told my MIL the same thing in essence. She seemed to be fighting to hold on - for the family. So, he leaned over and whispered in her ear that it was OK to go. Everyone would be OK and that she didn’t have to stay. She left almost immediately.

An issue fraught with guilt and emotions.

Yes - you can still die with dignity provided your family knows of your wishes and intentions. This is the key to control of a situation that usually has no control.

More often than not, well intending or selfish family members will "act in a patients interests" to keep them alive at all costs and measure. They will insist on futile and heroic measures just because they can't deal with or face a future.

Dignity with death can be had or controlled by living as you want to. It is done by simple conversation with your family to indicate what you wish. This culminates with the documentation of a Living Will and a Do Not Resuscitate Order. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, these documents must be available to the family and not tucked away in an inaccessible safe, deposit box, lawyers office, file cabinet, or secrete rat hole that no one know about.

I'm a HUGE believer in Quality of Life" vs "Quantity of Life". So if you never want to be on a ventilator or other life support or have a feeding tube placed. Let the family know.

Then when it is time for the "hard decisions" to be made, it is easy. You made the decisions and they don't have to have guilt or hesitation about making that decision.

Far too often, I have seen family members counter a patients wishes and place them on life support for all sorts of selfish reasons. The worst is when you figure out that they are doing so to "keep the support checks coming in". Yep - those folks are worse than pond scum. But, they don't realize that most of that money will be recouped by the Hospital or Govt.

So do yourself a favor, talk to your family and arrange for the proper documents to be executed.

Andrew

I don’t think the spirit has regrets. I believe it’s on another level of existence that doesn’t have the same definitions this one does.

It’s not unusual at all for the terminally ill to hang on until they are given “permission” by the family to pass on. Often it just takes a “Mom (son, daughter) is going to be okay” for them to be at peace with it enough to let it happen.

Dying peacefully is all we can hope for. I’ve seen both the passing quietly with loved ones around the bed and the epic struggle of life being ripped from the vessel that doesn’t want to give it up.
One leaves the family in sorrow at the loss but at peace, the other is just a horror show.

quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:
Dignity perhaps is a state of mind. If you are at peace with who you are, and where you are going, then maybe that is all you need, despite what is happening physically.

Agreed. We can't control how our bodies break down. I don't think there is any inherent indignity or shame in however it happens. It just happens.

I just spent the better part of 2 weeks with my 90 y/o dad and it is painfully obvious that he is changing fast. He and I had some great conversations and what I got from him and promised him so he could go out on his terms was;

- No old folks home, assisted living or anything that removes him from his lakefront home. He worked his ass off to live on a beautiful lake and he made me promise not to allow anyone to take him away from that.

- No fancy funeral...when my mom passed he went all in for her, beautiful casket, hearse, limos for family and then some. He was crystal clear that he wants the cheapest casket we can find and, if possible, he wants said casket to be transported in the bed of his beloved 1998 Ford Ranger (I told him that if it is legal not only will I do it but I will drive!)

I think knowing the way you wnat to exit and having it respected is pretty dignified.

No, I don't think so. Not what I would consider dignity to be anyway. Loss of control of your mind and body. Dependence on others, invasive medical procedures, loss of control of your environment and how you interact with it. Maby unbearable pain, perhaps slow suffocation ect. Even if you have the best advanced directive in the world, family that understands what you want and respect it, decisions will be made that you may not like. Face it bravely yes. Accept or fight it sure. Be an insperation to othes, of course. Humor, i have seen that.Maintain dignity in the process, no. We can though, treat the dying with dignity

I think one can die with relative dignity. In spite of what the body is doing, the spirit can take the high road of faith, patience and selflessness. Can one do that while in pain/agony? Probably, but that depends on how much pain and the nature of the individual. This is all detached reflection on my part since I have never had to suffer physically.

I want to die calmly, with dignity, in my sleep, like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

What a timely thread. I could use some advice. My mother, is 87 years old and suffering from dementia. She goes in and out. Two days ago she was taken to the hospital as she fell down. While there it was discovered that she has a bad heart which is operating at 30 percent of what it should be and that her kidneys are failing. Today, they discovered that she did not have a heartbeat and put her on an external pacemaker which helped a little by raising her heart rate to 10 percent of what it should be. The doctor recommended against installing a permanent pacemaker as he doesn't think it will improve her quality of life based on her heart condition, her dementia and her failing kidneys. My sisters and I are unsure of what to do. On one hand we are thinking of having the pacemaker installed but then we aren't sure that it is the right thing to do as my mom will pretty much be bedridden, unconscious and her dementia will only get worse along with her failing kidney problem. During one of the times she was able to talk my sister asked what she wanted and she replied "I just want to be with Frank" who is my father and her husband. He died thirty years ago. Now we have a distant relative who has stated that we will be guilty of manslaughter if we do not have the pacemaker installed which has both my sisters crying. That person btw has been escorted out of the building by security. But I'm just not sure what to do. Part of me says install the pacemaker but the other part says to let her go, that she would not want to live the life she would probably have. Thoughts?

She gave her wishes. Let her go.
With her heart condition and age, she probably would not survive surgery or anesthesia.
In my opinion, natural death is death with dignity.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
What a timely thread. I could use some advice. My mother, is 87 years old....

... But I'm just not sure what to do. Part of me says install the pacemaker but the other part says to let her go, that she would not want to live the life she would probably have. Thoughts?

The hell with your distant relatives.
You already said how your mother would like to live. Unfortunately, that includes the end as well.
It's not easy. To put it rather bluntly, it fuckin sucks.

If you need anything, you got my number.
Anytime, day or night!

Thanks brother.