Afghanistan Exit, When Is The Right Time? A Replay of History?

July 08, 2021, 07:31 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
To be accurate, the people there haven't been fighting each other since the time of Christ; the damage there has been going on long, long before Christ, and it's been invaders destroying them, not them destroying each other. Once one of the wealthiest spots on the spice trail, the destruction was so great that not a single plant or blade of grass was left alive.

Cursed for all time might be a better description.

Genghis Khan was the one who did that when he crushed the Khwarazmian Empire (central Asia and Persia). Few conflicts in history match this campaign's brutality.

But it made sense, the Shah of that Empire broke a treaty with Genghis. Genghis gave him a second chance, the Shah insulted Genghis' ambassadors, so Genghis said ok, you asked for war now you have it. Genghis made his point in a manner that still resonates in that area today. It has not been forgotten.

Leaders today do not understand this. We've turned war into a business and a "force for good" as stated in one dumb commercial. Either go all out, with a declaration of war, or use diplomacy.

“Posterity! You will never know how much it cost the present Generation to preserve your Freedom! I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven, that I ever took half the Pains to preserve it.”
― John Adams

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- Principal Skinner.

July 08, 2021, 09:15 PM

FishOn

quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by FishOn:
The Chinese will bribe everyone in sight, and completely ignore any atrocities. They don't give a damn.

The first time I landed at Kabul, it cost ten thousand dollars cash to offload the aircraft; it bought us about six hours on the ground, and we dealt with tribal people on horseback, among others. By the time we got it down to 2,500 in cash, we thought we were getting away with murder. With military control, that went away, but earlier on, it wasn't under control.

Most of the time we've been in Afghanistan, the Chinese have quietly been taking large amounts of precious metals out of Afghanistan. They didn't just arrive; they've been there the whole time. It wasn't widely broadcast here.

The Chinese were able to do what they did, at our expense. Nobody wanted to rock the boat.

After 20 years spilling American blood and spending Trillions of dollars, the Chinese are going to walk in and take control of the natural resources and get all of the treasure.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia...-afghanistan-taliban

July 08, 2021, 09:19 PM

old rugged cross

yep, none of that should be a surprise to anyone.

July 08, 2021, 09:46 PM

FishOn

"Accepting Chinese capital may come with expectations that Chinese companies will then be contracted to manage infrastructure, giving them at the least some influence over critical infrastructure."

https://chinapower.csis.org/ch...and-road-initiative/

July 08, 2021, 11:15 PM

cjevans

quote:
Originally posted by Belwolf:
... the Shah of that Empire broke a treaty with Genghis. Genghis gave him a second chance, the Shah insulted Genghis' ambassadors ...

... the Shah, Muhammad II, confiscated the three ambassador's (2 Mongols and a Muslim) assets, shaved the heads of the two Mongols, beheaded the Muslim, and then sending the two Mongols back with the head.

Result - an invasion campaign.

All over attacking and looting the Khan's caravan.

History. Live or die by it.

</chris>

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July 09, 2021, 01:14 AM

sns3guppy

quote:
Originally posted by FishOn:

After 20 years spilling American blood and spending Trillions of dollars, the Chinese are going to walk in and take control of the natural resources and get all of the treasure.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia...-afghanistan-taliban

You understand that the Chinese have been there the entire time, doing just that, right? It's not starting now. We've been taking the heat for 20 years, while they reaped and raped the wealth. This isn't new.

July 09, 2021, 09:20 AM

FishOn

quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by FishOn:

After 20 years spilling American blood and spending Trillions of dollars, the Chinese are going to walk in and take control of the natural resources and get all of the treasure.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia...-afghanistan-taliban

You understand that the Chinese have been there the entire time, doing just that, right? It's not starting now. We've been taking the heat for 20 years, while they reaped and raped the wealth. This isn't new.

Yes, I understand that. But nows its completely wide open for them to take over. They are doing this all around the world. Africa, South America, etc.

July 09, 2021, 09:48 AM

P220 Smudge

quote:
Yes. But nows its completely wide open for them to take over. They are doing this all around the world. Africa, South America, etc.

So are you trying to say we should stay in Afghanistan because the Chinese will walk in and take it over if we don’t? I disagree.

Something will eventually have to be done about China’s empire-building, but us staying in Afghanistan for another decade or more to simply prevent them from going there surely isn’t it. Short of that, I’m not sure what you’re advocating for. If it’s just “yeah, but China…” then I guess we get it. That line of thinking can continually come up with “good reasons” why we shouldn’t leave.

July 09, 2021, 10:15 AM

FishOn

quote:
Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
quote:
Yes. But nows its completely wide open for them to take over. They are doing this all around the world. Africa, South America, etc.

So are you trying to say we should stay in Afghanistan because the Chinese will walk in and take it over if we don’t? I disagree.

Something will eventually have to be done about China’s empire-building, but us staying in Afghanistan for another decade or more to simply prevent them from going there surely isn’t it. Short of that, I’m not sure what you’re advocating for. If it’s just “yeah, but China…” then I guess we get it. That line of thinking can continually come up with “good reasons” why we shouldn’t leave.

We should have left after 2 or 3 years, instead of 20. The results would have been the same. What did we accomplish? The Taliban will rule again and we are right back where we started.

July 09, 2021, 10:24 AM

SIGguy229

quote:
Originally posted by Herkdriver:
quote:
Herk...were you CAPTF? I was there 2008-2009 at SKAIA as we made the transition to NKAIA

Yeah

April 2010-11. Left exactly 1 week before the Kabul 9 killing. I would have been in the room where everyone was killed or next door.

We missed each other by a couple of months. Dec 2008-Dec 2009

I knew the guy who committed the shooting...I'm not surprised. All of them were on edge when we were phasing out the An-32s.

Let's not mention the off-the-books resupply missions.

July 09, 2021, 11:11 AM

P220 Smudge

quote:
Originally posted by FishOn:
We should have left after 2 or 3 years, instead of 20. The results would have been the same. What did we accomplish? The Taliban will rule again and we are right back where we started.

You won't get any disagreement from me there.

July 09, 2021, 02:25 PM

Herkdriver

quote:
Let's not mention the off-the-books resupply missions.

Or the coffins that might have bodies in them or maybe drugs or cash or other contraband?

July 10, 2021, 11:38 PM

mbinky

In my youth I did three tours in this shithole.

Fuck AFG.

I don't care who runs the place.

We fought tanks like they needed to be fought.

Never enough. Not for DC.

July 11, 2021, 12:55 PM

M'headSig

I believe the fact that we had a military draft during the Vietnam war contributed to the timing of our exit from that conflict. Almost every American family had or could have had skin in that game, and thus, a never-ending bloody stalemate became inconceivable. I wonder if our Afghanistan quagmire would have gone on for so long if, instead of a military made up of volunteers, any son (or daughter) had faced being drafted to risk their life or limb “nation-building" in Afghanistan or Iraq.

July 11, 2021, 03:59 PM

HKAngusKL

Lots of American blood and treasure was spent without a clear objective for victory. I am sure that Biden is fine with the Chinese locking up rights to all of the rare earth minerals (as long as another ten percent makes it's way to the big guy).

The Afghans never wanted to import western culture, and would never accept leftist morality being imposed on them without military occupation.

My prayers go out to our service members who paid the ultimate price there.

July 12, 2021, 12:53 AM

corsair

Crazy factoid....the Soviet's were there for 9-years, late '79 to early '89. We're getting out after nearly to 20-years.

What's left is an Afghani government that failed to get its act together and prepare for life after, a US political atmosphere that wasn't fully supportive of the effort and a military leadership (in-general) that continues to struggle with unconventional warfare both in prosecution and ability to explain the necessities to Congress. There was a 12-18-month period early-on where things looked good but, that quickly went away when general purpose forces started dictating the battle space and socio-political objectives crept into funding allocation.