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Originally posted by BlackTalonJHP:

I wouldn’t say that John quickly pivots here, I just think that kosmos refers to God’s creation which of course includes every living thing. Verse 10 doesn’t mention sin and rejection, only that the world didn’t know Christ. Verse 11 is speaking about the Jewish people rejecting him. I’m keeping my response short here because I don’t think this is a central point of your argument and there’s a lot to respond to.

I agree with a lot of what you posted here but your conclusion doesn’t follow. When we keep reading through 53:11 it says “make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities” and verse 12 says “yet he bore the sin of many”. It doesn’t say he bore the sin of every person who ever lived, which is what your position is.

1) You said, “I wouldn’t say that John quickly pivots here, I just think that kosmos refers to God’s creation which of course includes every living thing. Verse 10 doesn’t mention sin and rejection, only that the world didn’t know Christ. Verse 11 is speaking about the Jewish people rejecting him.”

1a) How much quicker can you pivot than “the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know him”?

1b) It may not be central to my argument, but it is central to yours that “world” in John 3:16 isn’t referring to people.

1c) So now I do have you agreeing that “world” (kosmos) — God’s creation — INCLUDES EVERY LIVING THING. “Every living thing” would have to include people who don’t believe.

1d) Applying your definition to John 3:16-17: “For God so loved His creation which includes every living thing, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever in His creation which includes every living thing believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

1e) Likewise with John 1:29: “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of creation which includes every living thing.” Everything in creation may have been affected by sin, but only people have sin.

2) You say Isaiah 53:6 “doesn’t say he bore the sin of every person who ever lived” (which you think is my position). What I think isn’t under discussion; it’s what the verse actually says:
“All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.”

2a) Are you saying the verse is wrong in saying “the iniquity of US ALL fell on Him”? And if “us all” doesn’t mean everyone, then the first part of the verse (“all of us have gone astray”) would also mean not everyone has gone astray. I’m not asking you to believe what I think — I’m asking whether you believe the Bible when it says, “All of us have gone astray but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him.”

2b) Using Isaiah 53:11-12 (“many”) to limit 53:6 is like the heretic using 1 Timothy 2:5 to prove Jesus isn’t almighty God. Isaiah 53:6 stands on its own. Do we believe Isaiah when he says “all of us have gone astray”? If we do, we must also believe the iniquity of us all fell on Him.

3) You’re addressing 1 John 2:2 by pointing to verses 12-14 (little children, fathers, young men) and concluding “ours” refers to a specific group of believers, so kosmos = “believers throughout the world.”

3a) You can’t say based on John 1:29 that 1 John 2:2 refers to “believers throughout the world.” You based your reading of John 1:29 on John 1:9-10. I pointed out that John shifts from “creation” to people who did not know the Creator. So, no, “world” can’t refer to “believers throughout the world” — especially since just a few verses later in the same letter John tells his readers not to love the world (1 John 2:15). John was writing a letter to communicate clearly to his readers; he would have used consistent definitions and not shifted from one meaning of “world” to a different one a few moments later.

3b) That still leaves the question: who exactly is the “ours” in “not for ours only”? I laid out the immediate context in 1 John 2:1-2 and 2:12 — John is writing to believers (“my little children,” “we have an Advocate,” “your sins have been forgiven”). You’re free to show why that context is wrong and identify the group “ours” refers to instead.

3c) What either of us believe regarding limited atonement has no bearing on whether we are Christians saved by grace. It is only one of the many non-essential beliefs deemed important to be an identifying characteristic of various Christian denominations. You can be grateful that handling poisonous snakes isn’t an important distinction for your denomination, but those snake handlers are no less saved than us if, indeed, they believe in Jesus.

4) You also challenged me on Ephesians 5:25 and several other verses, saying I must avoid an “argument from silence.” But you brought up Ephesians 5:25, so it is incumbent on you to show that it excludes unbelievers from the atonement. I don’t have to prove that it includes unbelievers. It would be the same as asking me to prove Jesus is almighty God from 1 Timothy 2:5 — especially when that verse refers to Jesus as a man and distinguishes Him from God. All Ephesians 5:25 says is that Jesus gave Himself up for the church, just as 1 Timothy 2:5 says Jesus is a man. The latter is not proof that Jesus isn’t God; likewise, the former is not proof that Jesus didn’t die for all.

ETA:
4a) Quoting me as saying I love my wife and would die for her doesn’t mean I would die only for my wife but not my children. Similarly, quoting the Bible as saying Jesus loves the church and gave Himself up for her does not negate the clear statements that “the iniquity of us all was laid on Him” so that “whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

I truly appreciate the time you’re taking and your charitable tone. God bless you.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rey HRH,

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Originally posted by ReyHRH: 1a) How much quicker can you pivot than “the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know him”?

I assumed by pivot you meant a segue or transition to another topic. John is simply pointing out that the creation doesn’t know the creator.

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1b) It may not be central to my argument, but it is central to yours that “world” in John 3:16 isn’t referring to people.

It’s not central to my argument or even a part of my argument. My central argument is simply reading the text as written that the Son was given to those who believe so that they would have eternal life.

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1c) So now I do have you agreeing that “world” (kosmos) — God’s creation — INCLUDES EVERY LIVING THING. “Every living thing” would have to include people who don’t believe.

The fact that God created all things and all people doesn’t mean that we can translate kosmos as “all people” You yourself pointed out a place where kosmos clearly means something other than “all people” in 1 John 2:15. I could point out a dozen other places where this is the case but the fact is that context determines the translation and interpretation of kosmos. If I said that I’ve travelled the whole world, would that mean I went to every country or every GPS point on Earth? If I said I’ve met people all over the world, does that mean I’ve met every single person who ever lived?

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1d) Applying your definition to John 3:16-17: “For God so loved His creation which includes every living thing, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever in His creation which includes every living thing believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

Yes, that’s exactly right. He gave His only begotten Son for whoever believes.

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1e) Likewise with John 1:29: “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of creation which includes every living thing.” Everything in creation may have been affected by sin, but only people have sin.

Same response as 1c

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2a) Are you saying the verse is wrong in saying “the iniquity of US ALL fell on Him”? And if “us all” doesn’t mean everyone, then the first part of the verse (“all of us have gone astray”) would also mean not everyone has gone astray. I’m not asking you to believe what I think — I’m asking whether you believe the Bible when it says, “All of us have gone astray but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him.”

Are you saying verses 11-12 are wrong? You didn’t address those verses. You said that when Isaiah was written “us all” referred to Israelites so I think you can understand the position that “us all” doesn’t always mean “everyone who ever lived”. Of course everyone who ever lived has sinned (Romans 3, Romans 5), but that doesn’t mean that you should use that as your hermeneutic for Isaiah 53 and read “us all” as everyone who ever lived. Futhermore, when Peter quotes Isaiah 53 in 1 Peter 2:21-25 he says that Christ bore the sins of his sheep (believers) and doesn’t say that he bore the sins of everyone who ever lived, so is Peter wrong?

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2b) Using Isaiah 53:11-12 (“many”) to limit 53:6 is like the heretic using 1 Timothy 2:5 to prove Jesus isn’t almighty God. Isaiah 53:6 stands on its own. Do we believe Isaiah when he says “all of us have gone astray”? If we do, we must also believe the iniquity of us all fell on Him.

Reading the entire chapter of Isaiah isn’t being heretical, it’s reading the context to properly exegete scripture. Isaiah 53:6 doesn’t stand on its own, it’s part of a larger text. But I appreciate you saying this because I’m better understanding why you are misinterpreting so many things. You need to read verses in context. Don’t focus so much on chapter and verse divisions, those aren’t part of inspired scripture. As far as “all of us” I addressed that in the previous point.

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3a) …John was writing a letter to communicate clearly to his readers; he would have used consistent definitions and not shifted from one meaning of “world” to a different one a few moments later.

But you yourself believe the definition of kosmos changes here. Unless you believe that John is telling people not to love all people, which contradicts what Jesus taught. Do you think John uses kosmos in verse 15 to instruct his audience not to love “all people”?

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3b) That still leaves the question: who exactly is the “ours” in “not for ours only”? I laid out the immediate context in 1 John 2:1-2 and 2:12 — John is writing to believers (“my little children,” “we have an Advocate,” “your sins have been forgiven”). You’re free to show why that context is wrong and identify the group “ours” refers to instead.

I think I addressed this previously but I’m happy to readdress it. John is writing to several specific groups of believers in chapter 2, not just believers in general. We know this because in verses 12-14 he says in each stanza “I’m writing to you, little children…fathers…young men…children” So in each of these verses the “you” is that specific group of believers. In verse 13a “I’m writing to you, fathers, because you know him…” the “you” is “fathers” Do you agree? Likewise in verse 12, the “you” is “little children”. We can’t say “little children” just means “believers” which is how you are reading the text. Going back to verse 1-2 the audience is “little children” so when the word “ours” is used we can’t assume it must mean “believers”. The better interpretation given the context is that John is speaking about his audience when he says “ours” and then when he says the world, he’s referring to the world of believers outside of his audience. As I mentioned in my last post, my interpretation is consistent with John’s gospel as well as the rest of scripture.

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3c) What either of us believe regarding limited atonement has no bearing on whether we are Christians saved by grace. It is only one of the many non-essential beliefs deemed important to be an identifying characteristic of various Christian denominations. You can be grateful that handling poisonous snakes isn’t an important distinction for your denomination, but those snake handlers are no less saved than us if, indeed, they believe in Jesus.

I agree. I’m thankful that I’m saved by grace and a Baptist by conviction.

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4) You also challenged me on Ephesians 5:25 and several other verses, saying I must avoid an “argument from silence.” But you brought up Ephesians 5:25, so it is incumbent on you to show that it excludes unbelievers from the atonement.

It specifically excludes unbelievers because it says Christ gave himself up for his church. The church (ecclesia) excludes unbelievers by definition.

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I don’t have to prove that it includes unbelievers. It would be the same as asking me to prove Jesus is almighty God from 1 Timothy 2:5 — especially when that verse refers to Jesus as a man and distinguishes Him from God. All Ephesians 5:25 says is that Jesus gave Himself up for the church, just as 1 Timothy 2:5 says Jesus is a man. The latter is not proof that Jesus isn’t God; likewise, the former is not proof that Jesus didn’t die for all.

I’m not asking you to do the impossible and prove that Ephesians 5:25 includes unbelievers, I was just curious about how you reconcile all of these passages I listed that speak of Christ only giving himself for believers with your view that he gave himself for everyone. It seems like the answer is to fall back to an argument from silence.

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4a) Quoting me as saying I love my wife and would die for her doesn’t mean I would die only for my wife but not my children

Let’s think through your example to its logical conclusion. it doesn’t mean you would only die for your wife but not your children, and your friends, and your neighbors, and all the people in your city, and all the people in Arizona. But that’s not what you intended to convey when you said you would die for your wife. In fact, we can’t even draw an inference that you would die for all the people in Arizona from your statement about your wife. But that’s exactly how you are reading Ephesians 5:25 and the verses I cited in John. That’s not how we should exegete scripture.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I hope you are well, God bless you.

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Originally posted by BlackTalonJHP:
I assumed by pivot you meant a segue or transition to another topic. John is simply pointing out that the creation doesn’t know the creator.

1) You say that “John is simply pointing out that the creation doesn’t know the creator.”

1a) It seems you’re not seeking to understand my arguments because I said the creation cannot fail to know its Creator. The stones would have cried out in praise if the people had been silent (Luke 19:40). The disciples were amazed that Jesus quieted the storm (Matthew 8:26-27).

1b) The only part of creation that wouldn’t know its Creator would be people. It’s the world consisting of sinners that didn’t know its Creator.

1c) Even setting that aside, your position still has a consistency problem. You cannot say that in 1 John 2:2 the “world” refers to “believers throughout the world” when just a few verses later John tells his readers not to love the world (1 John 2:15). When “world consisting of sinners” is used in both places, the reading becomes far more consistent internally. We still have John 1:29 as being consistent with Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world consisting of sinners.

2) You say, “Yes, that’s exactly right. He gave His only begotten Son for whoever believes.”

2a) You’re misquoting the verse; the verse doesn’t say “He gave His only begotten Son for whoever believes.” The verse says, “He gave His only begotten Son, THAT whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

2b) I have to point out your presupposition has been coloring your argument all along and you’re not really looking at the issue critically from an objective point of view when you state that He gave His only begotten Son FOR whoever believes. Can you, at least, admit that?

2c) Quoting Ephesians 5:25 or John 10:15 as saying Jesus died for the church or His sheep does not prove He died only for them and no one else. I prove my point with a simple analogy: Quoting me as saying I love my wife and would die for her doesn’t mean I would die only for my wife and not my children.

3) Setting aside for the moment as to who is incorrect, you didn’t answer my question: Do you believe Isaiah 53:6?
“All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.”

3a) Who is “all of us” who have gone astray? Just those who believe? Was Paul not including everyone when he said “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)?

3b) Whoever “all of us” who have gone astray, that’s whose iniquity was laid on Him. You agree that all who had ever lived has sinned and that would fit “all of us like sheep have gone astray.” If you would suspend yourself from your presupposition of limited atonement, then “the iniquity of us all” falling on Him would be consistent.

3c) I didn’t say reading the entire chapter is heretical. Please don’t twist what I said. I said that pointing out that Christ died for His church which is true but using it as an argument to say Christ died only for His church is like the heretic using 1 Timothy 2:5 to argue that Jesus is only a man and not God.

3d) Pointing out how Christ bore the sins of believers (as in 1 Peter 2:21-25) isn’t an argument that He didn’t bear the sins of all. 1 Peter 2:25 echoes Isaiah 53:6 about believers continually straying like sheep. So the question returns: are believers the only ones who have strayed? No — all have sinned.

3e) The New Testament epistles were letters written to believers, so of course the letters would be written with them in mind. The exception is 1 John 2:2, where the sins of the world are mentioned. You have to switch to two different meanings of “world” just a few sentences apart simply to avoid accepting the idea that Christ’s death sufficiently covers all of mankind’s sins.

3f) You say we can’t simply say “little children” just means “believers.” But who else besides believers has Jesus as an Advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1)? Who else besides believers has Jesus as the propitiation for their sins (1 John 2:2)? Who else besides believers has their sins forgiven (1 John 2:12)? If “little children” doesn’t refer to believers in this context, then who exactly does it refer to?

4) As to who is incorrect in understanding the passages is inherently the issue of our debate. It’s similar to when I pointed out to you that we don’t “know” world doesn’t refer to people; it’s what’s at issue. You do know not all Baptists believe in limited atonement, right?

4a) Saying Christ gave Himself for the church does not exclude unbelievers simply because “church” doesn’t include them by definition — any more than saying “I will die for my wife” excludes dying for my children simply because children are not part of the definition of spouse.

4b) Your attempt to extend my analogy by bringing in “all the people in Arizona” misses the point. I never claimed that saying I would die for my wife means I would die for everyone in Arizona. You are the one asserting that when the Bible says Christ gave Himself for the church, it necessarily means He gave Himself only for the church and for no one else. My example shows that this exclusive conclusion does not logically follow from the particular statement.

4c) How would your life change if and when you realize the doctrine of limited atonement is incorrect? I honestly cannot imagine how the doctrine is affecting your life right now. If you are actively involved in sharing the gospel and making disciples of all nations, I don’t think you personally get an indication that this person’s sin Christ died for and therefore you should share the gospel with them, while this person’s sin Christ didn’t die for and you shouldn’t waste your time with them. If you are carrying out the Great Commission, I imagine you have to share the gospel with everyone assuming Christ died for their sins since you’re not privy to that information, correct? Is this how you share the gospel with people or do you wait for some sign that Jesus died for their sins? I’m genuinely curious how the doctrine affects your Christian living.

I truly appreciate the time you’re taking and your charitable tone. God bless you.