The Navy has had a leadership problem since the end of the Cold War. Becoming a flag officer has become more political and less about leadership as the decades have passed. The list is a long one of alarming and problematic issues that show no sign of turning, yet those in charge have gotten away with little accountability. From the issues with the NCIS/JAG Corps, ship acquisition and development, aircraft acquisition and development, maintenance and training. All of these areas have been allowed to fester and founder, meanwhile readiness, retention and morale continues to spiral downward.

The USN needs an Admiral Byng example. Certain offices in the Pentagon need to close or, be moved far away from the beltway and closer to the docks to be reminded of what their jobs are for and the principal mission of the Navy.

Keep in mind, this all started when the SEAL command relaxed standards and allowed questionable disciplinary issues become standard decades ago. Combine that with a NCIS/JAG Corps and their aggressive and predatory tactics, they lived up to their moniker 'the Admirals Guestapo'. Flag officers continuing to blame others, and not take any responsibility resulted in POTUS interjecting himself into a case that should've been fairly basic and benign.

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Then, on his way out, the secretary of the Navy, in referring to the president's direction on Gallagher, wrote: " I cannot, in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took . . .. "

So, in my reading, Spencer admits he wanted something different from the president and was working against him.

Yes, but it's worse than that.
Spencer doesn't simply admit he wanted something different from the president and was working against him.

He goes on to basically call it an unlawful order, in violation of his oath to the Constitution.

"The rule of law is what sets us apart from our adversaries," Spencer wrote. "Good order and discipline is what has enabled our victory against foreign tyranny time and time again."

"Unfortunately, it has become apparent that in this respect, I no longer share the same understanding with the Commander in Chief who appointed me, in regards to the key principle of good order and discipline," he continued. "I cannot in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my family, my flag and my faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States."

But he doesn't explain why obeying the order of the Commander in Chief would violate the sacred oath he took. He doesn't point to any section or provision in the Constitution that would be violated. He merely disagrees with the President's decision and couches his disagreement as some sort of violation of the Constitution yet without any explanation of how or why.

quote:

Is it just me or did this clown basically give Trump a big parting "FUCK YOU" in that letter?

Yes, exactly. That's all it was.

If this is too much of a drift I'll remove it. Trying to catch up, I was never able to really understand what Gallagher did. I read some stuff about knifing a wounded kid, and that fellow SEALS said he was outta control and murdering people? But it didn't seem decisive. Is there anywhere I can read the facts of all this? My searching has come up vague and it's hard to know what to trust.

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
If this is too much of a drift I'll remove it. Trying to catch up, I was never able to really understand what Gallagher did. I read some stuff about knifing a wounded kid, and that fellow SEALS said he was outta control and murdering people? But it didn't seem decisive. Is there anywhere I can read the facts of all this? My searching has come up vague and it's hard to know what to trust.

I may have a few things missing here but, this is the basic structure

- Wounded Iraqi prisoner, attempted to escape and was killed while in the custody of SEALs
- Navy SEAL (Gallagher) is charged with attempted murder, obstruction, posing with enemy casualty, and a few other charges after being 'turned in' by fellow SEALs.
- Stateside, Gallagher is detained then confined to solitary and is allowed no visitation
- The investigation drags for nearly a year, as more 'issues' with Gallagher is uncovered from previous deployments.
- Gallagher fires his original defense team, rather than go to trail, they are working to cut a deal with the USN
- New defense team discovers that NCIS has been using electronic eavesdropping methods against the defense, refusing subpoenas and hiding evidence meanwhile command and others in Navy/DoD have publicly commented their views/leanings, thus inserting undue command influence.
- Trail reveals that SEAL medic (prosecution witness) had closed the airway of the prisoner in an effort to end the suffering.
- 6 of 7 charges dropped, time served, jury recommends reduction in rank to E-6 instead of E-1. Lone charge, posing over a enemy casualty during reenlistment ceremony into the Navy.
- Gallagher requests clemency while SEAL community convenes to remove Gallagher's NSW designator (Trident pin...same as dolphins or, wings)
- JAG Chief awards prosecution team Navy Achievement Medal, POTUS rescinds award.
- Trump intervenes ultimately tells the DoD to knock it off. SecNav ignores POTUS instructions and intent.

The President is the ultimate arbiter in military justice cases, especially non-judicial punishment. That's all Spencer needed to know.

Thanks for the details corsair.

So has it come out what details are correct about what he actually did? Or were his fellow SEALS vindictive against him or something? What I recall hearing was some pretty heinous stuff he was accused of. Or the court verdict of only posing with the body tell the whole story of his actual guilt?

I forget - what was the outcome of the court martials of the rest of the guys in this picture?



oh, there weren't any others?

why how could that be?

Not that I approve or disapprove in this case, but it is extremely common for someone to be charged with serious offenses that merit a criminal trial, only for it to turn out that there was only enough evidence to convict on some lesser offense that would have never been charged in the first place. Such decisions are usually made by juries, and juries are notoriously subject to whims of conscience. I am just speculating, but based on my experience with military juries, it’s quite possible that the jury may have felt that there wasn’t quite enough evidence to convict of the serious offenses and destroy the man’s life, but that he was clearly guilty of the posing offense, and a conviction for that would be a good riddance end to his special ops career.

Something I saw more than once was a rape allegation that couldn’t be proved (“She said, he said”) but the man admitted to consensual intercourse and because one or both parties were married, that constituted the offense of adultery. Adultery by itself might have gotten someone nothing more than Article 15 nonjudicial punishment, and therefore not a criminal conviction, but once the matter was being tried by court martial, that’s what it became.

We may not like it, but that’s the way it is in both the civilian and military systems.

I don’t know enough about all the allegations against Gallagher to have any opinion about the legitimacy of the President’s actions in his case, but anyone who objects to his right to do what he did needs to first explain how the previous President’s actions in the case of the deserter who defected to the Taliban in a combat zone was any more legitimate. Where were the resignations or threats to resign then?

the killed an enemy combatant

isn't that what they're trained to do?

who taught them that they had to be nice and polite while they did it?

don't see anything wrong with that photo given what they have done to our soldiers

I think we need to see hundreds if not thousands of more photos like that

the Navy weenie can't stand the sight of blood - good riddance to a quisling

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
So has it come out what details are correct about what he actually did? Or were his fellow SEALS vindictive against him or something? What I recall hearing was some pretty heinous stuff he was accused of. Or the court verdict of only posing with the body tell the whole story of his actual guilt?

What motivated fellow SEALs to dime out Eddie Gallagher?

https://www.navytimes.com/news...out-eddie-gallagher/

A SEAL team functions a bit differently than a sea command. You’re either in or you’re out. Gallagher was out. Not a popular guy. The story from Navy Times is an eye-opener.

One thing people forget is military people are like civilians - there are the loudmouths, the braggers, the quiet ones, the guys who always sees things no one else does, the ones who tell stories, etc, etc.

We had an F-14 guy who always saw the enemy. ALWAYS. Confirmed tank (large boulder). Enemy troops running (herd of sheep). Etc, etc. He was good at his job aside from this and was kept in check by others, so he did fine.

But you always wondered about him and how he went through the mental gymnastics to justify what he wanted to destroy, when others went to great lengths to be sure.

I didn't serve in the Armed Forces so let's get that out of the way up front.

How much does anyone know about the Navy Times? What is their political bent?

What was the inspiration behind that Navy Times article? Was that article inspired by some butthurt 'crat? Were some SEALs pissed at Gallagher for some reason? Would Navy Times print lies to besmirch a SEAL that upper management didn't like?

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
One thing people forget is military people are like civilians - there are the loudmouths, the braggers, the quiet ones, the guys who always sees things no one else does, the ones who tell stories, etc, etc.

We had an F-14 guy who always saw the enemy. ALWAYS. Confirmed tank (large boulder). Enemy troops running (herd of sheep). Etc, etc. He was good at his job aside from this and was kept in check by others, so he did fine.

But you always wondered about him and how he went through the mental gymnastics to justify what he wanted to destroy, when others went to great lengths to be sure.

Sounds like you were on the USS Ranger during Desert Storm. 50/50 shot as to the command I mention but in this particular command we had a pilot flame out in Fallon, NV with 4K in the wings and swore up and down his transfer switch was in auto (not override like photos showed).

quote:

Originally posted by roberth:
I didn't serve in the Armed Forces so let's get that out of the way up front.

How much does anyone know about the Navy Times? What is their political bent?

What was the inspiration behind that Navy Times article? Was that article inspired by some butthurt 'crat? Were some SEALs pissed at Gallagher for some reason? Would Navy Times print lies to besmirch a SEAL that upper management didn't like?

Navy Times is published by Sightline Media Group a portfolio company of private equity firm Regent. Sightline Media Group which was formerly called the Gannett Government Media Corporation, and was once a part of Gannett Company. Gannett, which owns USA TODAY and more than 100 other daily publications and digital marketing services such as ReachLocal.

I believe this is all what you need to know about them.

quote:

Originally posted by 2BobTanner:

quote:

Originally posted by roberth:
I didn't serve in the Armed Forces so let's get that out of the way up front.

How much does anyone know about the Navy Times? What is their political bent?

What was the inspiration behind that Navy Times article? Was that article inspired by some butthurt 'crat? Were some SEALs pissed at Gallagher for some reason? Would Navy Times print lies to besmirch a SEAL that upper management didn't like?

Navy Times is published by Sightline Media Group a portfolio company of private equity firm Regent. Sightline Media Group which was formerly called the Gannett Government Media Corporation, and was once a part of Gannett Company. Gannett, which owns USA TODAY and more than 100 other daily publications and digital marketing services such as ReachLocal.

I believe this is all what you need to know about them.

Holy cow man!!! Thanks!!

quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
Sounds like you were on the USS Ranger during Desert Storm. 50/50 shot as to the command I mention but in this particular command we had a pilot flame out in Fallon, NV with 4K in the wings and swore up and down his transfer switch was in auto (not override like photos showed).

Nah, that was well before my time... but even though the names change, the same people are always there in some form or fashion... The Fallon flameout was still talked about years later as a good example of what not to do...

People fuck people. That's what people do.

Either you fear it and live in a dark spider hole, or you accept it and keep your wits about you, and your fangs sharp and ever ready.

-fangsoutmonkey

quote:

Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
.... I was never able to really understand what Gallagher did. ....

The only thing that’s necessary to understand is:
1. The President is Commander in Chief.
2. The President has pardon authority.

HayesGreener, stated the current issue very well.
“The President is the ultimate arbiter in military justice cases, especially non-judicial punishment. That's all Spencer needed to know.”

The problem we currently have in both the Government and Military boils down to many having grandiose views of themselves and their position of authority.

What Gallagher did or did not do is irrelevant.

In these cases, U.S. Citizens have the opportunity to exercise their authority at the voting box.

^^^^^^^

That's the way I see it.

Case closed.

P.S. Don't cross the Commander in Chief.

Oh, one more point.

What Gallagher did or did not do is irrelevant.

However, prosecutorial misconduct which may have occurred under NCIS, JAG, or other DOD entities is relevant.

Misconduct in regards to prosecution of Chief Petty Officer Gallagher should be investigated and charges brought as appropriate.