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| Savor the limelight |
I tried to find a transcript of what he said. I can summarize the summary: Times are before the end of the recordings. 2:45 landing gear lowered 1:52 lowered flaps to 30 degrees 1:33 lowered flaps to 45 degrees 1:26 electronic callout 1,000’ 1:12 flight crew confirmed the landing checklist was complete There’s more, but that’s what the guy said about operating the aircraft except for at 5 or 6 seconds the captain took the controls. | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
Thank you for that summary. So nothing there looks suspicious that the crew was rushed or behind what was happening. Flaps 45 went out before 1000' agl, so they were within the profile. That they "confirmed" the landing checklist was complete is possibly vague, but it also does not indicate anything abnormal to me. At my airline the final item on the Before Landing Checklist was verifying landing flaps are at the desired extension (not just that the flap handle is in the desired position), so the non-flying pilot would look at (and frequently point at) the flap indicator and announce "Flaps 45, Before Landing Checklist Complete". The CRJ900 is a slippery airplane which takes good planning and energy management to not be too fast through this part of the approach. Getting to flaps 45 while descending on the glideslope can be a challenge. Speed brakes on the 900 are more like rumble strips than devices to slow the aircraft. The crew's apparent unawareness of the trucks crossing the runway is curious. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
The NTSB said what gave today was just a summary. They’ve got a team of people in DC listening to the CVR who will release a complete transcript. They didn’t say who saw who when other than to say they are investigating it. The last thing that happened is the captain took the controls which was after the plane had touched down. | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
LGA has the Runway Status Light system, RWSL, which is a radar based Red/Green light system. The cctv video shows the lights for the crossing taxiway are red as the truck enters the runway. This was for the direction of travel opposite to the direction the fire truck was traveling, but I believe both directions would have the same color. The video doesn't show much time before the collision, so I can't tell when the Runway Entrance Light was red, just that it was at the moment the truck entered the runway. Radar detects every moving vehicle and aircraft on the surface as well as airborne aircraft close to landing. A computer sets lights red if a potential conflict exists. An aircraft on short final or moving on the runway would result in every crossing taxiway to have red lights. Some are making it a bit of a controversy that the fire truck didn't have a transponder. RWSL does not need transponder data. The system is autonomous, so it neither knows nor cares what clearances ATC has given. Thus a green light isn't clearance to proceed. A red light is a hard DON"T. Certainly the NTSB will be looking at video to determine whether the RWSL system was working properly. RWSL would be the final safety net when everything else has failed to prevent a conflict. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
I’m paraphrasing, but the NTSB addressed the radar not seeing the trucks as a problem, it rather a set of two blobs. They said none of these trucks had transponders, but trucks at some other airports do. The lady hit the nail on the head when she said “They should have all the information, this is 2026!” when talking about the system that’s supposed to keep track of ground traffic, etc. The briefing is really worth watching. | |||
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| Member |
About to touch down and captain takes over?? That seems highly unusual unless he saw the fire truck. | |||
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Member |
Usually the captain takes over when slow on the rollout, 60 knots or so and slowing. Some planes, many, only have full steering for taxi on the left side. The captain in this case may of been a ‘she’, not that it matters. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
Touch down at 8 seconds control swap at 6 seconds. The video really is well worth watching for the timeline the guy lays out in summary of the CVR which starts at around 3:15. | |||
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| Get my pies outta the oven!  |
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| I have not yet begun to procrastinate |
You’d be surprised at the acceleration of an airport truck. They have the same engine as an M1 Abrams tank, with only 1/2 the weight of the Abrams. *It isn’t “sports car” fast but it sure can haul ass from a dead stop compared to other “street” trucks. Trying to verify some details with my buddy who retired from an AARF Captain spot at Sky Harbor. *Responding to a smell on an aircraft isn’t going to be a balls to wall situation unless it smells like a possible fire. Sewer like smell does not describe fire like smell. -------- After the game, the King and the pawn go into the same box. | |||
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| Just because you can, doesn't mean you should |
The reports are that the truck didn't have a transponder, as most emergency vehicles at larger airports would have. There are other issues, but that seems to be the most obvious way to have avoided this. ___________________________ Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible. | |||
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אַרְיֵה |
Transponders can be had for around $1,000. Maybe less. Lowest cost units would do the job, since altitude reporting would not be a requirement for this application. הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Member |
Juan Browne's report after yesterday's NTSB briefing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHLrA-BSFYo He shows the red "traffic light" system that the firefights may have ignored. He also describes the automated ground radar system that would have worked better had the fire truck been equipped with a tranponder.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sigmund, | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 47....Making America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated  |
As long as the computers NEVER overheat, NEVER receive a bad update....the list is long. Anyone who conducts operations on an active airport environment shares some responsibility that others have not made a mistake. "Someday I hope to be half the man my bird-dog thinks I am." looking forward to 4 years of TRUMP! | |||
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| Three Generations of Service  |
This is from a friend of mine who is an airport/spaceport firefighter with many years of experience currently at Wallops Flight Facility in VA:
Be careful when following the masses. Sometimes the M is silent. | |||
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Member |
So, you are saying airport trucks use Honeywell AGT1500 multi-fuel turbine engines? _________________________________________________________________________ “A man’s treatment of a dog is no indication of the man’s nature, but his treatment of a cat is. It is the crucial test. None but the humane treat a cat well.” -- Mark Twain, 1902 | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
On the first point, I agree at this moment with your friend. The controller made an error but it is understandable due to the complexities of what was going on in the minutes leading up to the accident. It might be a case of any good controller could have made such an error. However, this controller's history will inform us if he has been a top notch performer or not. Usually, only the top performers go to the busy major airports. It isn't always the case, and there are examples of chronically bad controllers such as the one that led to the 1991 accident at LAX. On the second point, your friend is wrong, though it probably reflects a common belief. A clearance is not a guarantee. It is truly no different than a green traffic light, where you still have the responsibility to see and avoid traffic even though you have been cleared to go. A clearance is an approval, but safety and legality remains the responsibility of the operator. It is common, SOP at many major airports, to be cleared for takeoff or landing while the runway is not clear. Jazz was cleared to land #2, meaning there was an aircraft ahead of them landing before they do. If that aircraft stopped on the runway, it would be Jazz's responsibility to go around even though they'd been cleared. Right now I am most harsh on the pilots and the fire truck driver. Eyeballs and situational awareness are necessary. Tech is not a substitute. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
At what point in the landing sequence can the plane not go around? The NTSB laid out a good timeline for who could have heard what when. The runway would have been visibly clear to the pilots right up until the last X number of seconds because the truck wasn't on the runway until it was. Silly analogy alert: around 2000 I was riding back to Chicago from St. Paul on US14 along the west side of the Mississippi River south of Winona. I saw a turkey standing on the right side of the road facing the opposite side of the road. I slowed down to about 60, covered the front brake and clutch with my hands, covered the rear brake with my foot, and waited for the turkey to make its move. I stared at that turkey, it just sat there motionless, and didn't makes its move until it did. At that point my window to react had closed and I marveled that it jumped straight up then went straight out right in front of me taking out the right mirror on my bike then slamming my right shoulder making a bloody feathered mess. Reason 229 I'm not a pilot: failure to react appropriately after identifying a potential threat. Point being, the pilots may very well have seen the truck, but the truck wasn't a problem until is was. I'm assuming vehicles and other planes holding short of entering runways is normal, so at what point in the landing process is it too late for the plane if some turkey jumps across the runway? | |||
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Certified Plane Pusher |
As long as people are in the cockpit and the tower, there is a lot that AI cannot help. Tools to aid in doing the job for sure but can never outright take over. Sequencing VFR and IFR traffic is a good example. Handling ever changing weather conditions. Mechanical issues. Heck, my radio equipment is running on Windows 98. Situation awareness is defined as a continuous extraction of environmental information, integration of this information with previous knowledge to form a coherent mental picture in directing further perception and anticipating future events. Simply put, situational awareness mean knowing what is going on around you. | |||
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