Just got back from visiting my son at Camp Lejeune. When we were on base at a 7 day store, there were monitors similar to those you normally see paid advertisements on in civilian stores. As it was scrolling through the various messages, one said “We stand with MARSOC” and another said “MARSOC, it’s when, not if”.

I inquired about what that meant to clerk and she said “MARSOC is being disbanded”. So when I got back out to the car, I asked my son about it. He said apparently the Commandant started a pissing match with SOCOM banging the “all Marines are special” drum a while back. Recently an ALMAR (similar to an standard operating procedure) that no Marine will wear SOCOM issued equipment, all Marines will be shaven at all times even when forward deployed with SOCOM, and even when forward deployed they’ll have regular formations and other shit that the Corps does well at wasting time.

Apparently, SOCOM pushed back, the Commandant doubled down, and SOCOM is pulling their support for MARSOC being one of their tenets under the guise of “you don’t do a job that someone else can’t do”. The kicker seems to be that SOCOM has arranged some back room deal with USASOC to attract end of contract Marines to fast track to Army A Teams. And guys are apparently showing their intent to leave at the end of contract to move to the Army.

If true, this is beyond fucked up.
I know a few Marines that were in Det-1, a few that were in 2nd Force that were the “Plank Owners” of MARSOC.
It was a long, hard fight to get into that Community and Budget, and earned their place every day.

There’s been rumors about MARSOC being disbanded for about a year now, but have been growing stronger in the past few months.



(JLJ- how’s your son? Hope all is well with him!)

I really don’t understand the every Marine is special ethos. The Marines are steadfast about being their own full branch of service. They are repulsed about their association with the Navy. But if they truly are their own branch, then how can everyone in that branch be special? I’ve worked with a bunch of marines over the years, and have some very dear friends that are former Marines, but none have ever been able to explain those seemingly mutually exclusive viewpoints to me.

As far as the Army picking off Marines for SF spots, I say good on them, and think that falls squarely on poor management for the Marine Corps leadership. If someone has been trained to do a job, is passionate about that job, is good at that job and wants to do that job, how are they a bad person for leaving an organization that is getting rid of that job? Frankly, in general, I’d rather have someone that is passionate about a job than someone that is merely passionate about an organization. If the job they signed up to do and that they do well moves to another branch of service what’s wrong with them going to that branch of service where their job is now located?

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
As far as the Army picking off Marines for SF spots, I say good on them, and think that falls squarely on poor management for the Marine Corps leadership. If someone has been trained to do a job, is passionate about that job, is good at that job and wants to do that job, how are they a bad person for leaving an organization that is getting rid of that job? Frankly, in general, I’d rather have someone that is passionate about a job than someone that is merely passionate about an organization. If the job they signed up to do and that they do well moves to another branch of service what’s wrong with them going to that branch of service where their job is now located?

That's not really the issue at all. The issue is the Commandant cutting off his nose to spite his face.

quote:

That's not really the issue at all. The issue is the Commandant cutting off his nose to spite his face.

But the reality is just what Lt Cheg stated isn’t it? Guys who want to move to an active spot in the roster rotation regardless of what branch is represented. Politics be damned, get the job done as well as you can.

CPD SIG: “I know a few Marines that were in Det-1, a few that were in 2nd Force that were the “Plank Owners” of MARSOC.”
Can anyone please translate this into common English?

JMHO, people put a LOT of ego into “Once a Marine, always a Marine.” I get it, it’s something to be proud of.
If that extends to 30-40 years later and your life is now a complete shitshow, well, not so much. Your PREVIOUS life might have been exemplary but now??
Like I said…JMHO and I’ve been wrong before.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
As far as the Army picking off Marines for SF spots, I say good on them, and think that falls squarely on poor management for the Marine Corps leadership. If someone has been trained to do a job, is passionate about that job, is good at that job and wants to do that job, how are they a bad person for leaving an organization that is getting rid of that job?

Not unusual to find prior service Marines that have continued their careers with Army & USAF SOF units. While hard-charging, highly capable enlisted Marines can find success initially in their enlistment, things begin to stove-pipe once they get to the E-5/E-6 point in their careers as billets become limited and Marine Corps career path demands that they cycle back to the Fleet and take-up positions that are with general purpose units.

The creation of MARSOC helped retain those highly-capable Marines within the community by creating a new MOS but, because of their small size, there was still many that were forced-out simply because there's a limited number of slots within that community. So, because both Army and USAF SOF are both larger, more diverse and more mature career development, not unusual to see former Marines making the move.

The Marine Corps has always been pretty notorious for intentionally celebrating misery. I noticed that a barracks that I lived in around 1988…….is still standing and is still occupied. It was probably 40 years old when I lived there. Really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter. And hey, that cool “we’re Marines and we’re tough”.

The M27 is another great example of leadership stupidity. “We’re Marines and we’re warfighters so let’s have a different gun. This gun will replace the light machine gun. But, we’re not going to buy you the 60 round magazines for it because everyone needs to look identical, and we can’t have some marines with different magazines”

With the exception of MARSOC, I hated working with Marines. They’re quick to take our resources for their mission, but never interested in sharing their assistance with anyone else. After 21 years active duty and 18 combat deployments, I have come to the conclusion the Marines should be disbanded. They cannot grasp the joint nature of war, and deliberately see only their own utility.

Nothing against individual Marines who joined looking for adventure, but I have a lot against senior Marine leadership who place the priorities of their organization above the overall mission. MARSOC is great, the Marines hate them because Marines hate joint and SOCOM/JSOC is built on the idea that joint is most effective. And it is.

Edited to add: I want to emphasize I’ve met lots of great individual Marines, and my distaste for USMC is a distaste for their organizational ethos and senior O & E leadership. I won’t bore the reader with examples but at this point I absolutely think our nations military would be better served without the Marines.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:


CPD SIG: “I know a few Marines that were in Det-1, a few that were in 2nd Force that were the “Plank Owners” of MARSOC.”
Can anyone please translate this into common English?

.

Quick history lesson:
Around 2004-2005 timeframe, the Marine Corps was a little upset about funding. And a ton of money and resources going to USSOCOM (Special Operations Command), and they wanted a piece of that pie.

The first unit to get created was Detachment-1 (DET-1) Mostly Force Reconnaissance Marines, with a few Reconnaissance Marines scattered in.

That Unit was disbanded for various reasons.

MARSOC was created in 2006. (Eventually becoming 3 Units- 1st out of Pendleton, 2nd out of LeJeune, 3rd in Okinawa) When MARSOC was started up, they needed Marines. So the bosses who were starting it up went to Camp LeJeune and stole a shit load of Marines from 2nd Force Reconnaissance and 2nd Reconnaissance Battalion.
These original Marines are known as “Plank Owners”, a Naval term stemming from the wooden ship era; they were there when the ship was commissioned, and were entitled to part of the ships deck (a plank) when the ship was decommissioned.

MARSOC, being composed of Marines and Navy Corpsmen (medics) now fall under the SOCOM umbrella.
Better training, better funding, better access to different assets in the Government.
But, in true Marine Corps fashion, a good thing was fucked up pretty quickly (bad management).

“Big Marine Corps” has always been… Jealous, critical, of Reconnaissance / Force Reconnaissance / MARSOC. There’s been a certain animosity towards that community. “ALL Marines are special, not just those Recon Marines.” On the flip side of that coin- Recon / Force Recon sometimes forget exactly “who” and “why” they were working for.

CPD SIG, thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Corsair:
So, because both Army and USAF SOF are both larger, more diverse and more mature career development, not unusual to see former Marines making the move.

I’m curious (and know virtually nothing about this topic), is there a reason you didn’t include the Navy in the above comment?

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:

quote:

Originally posted by Corsair:
So, because both Army and USAF SOF are both larger, more diverse and more mature career development, not unusual to see former Marines making the move.

I’m curious (and know virtually nothing about this topic), is there a reason you didn’t include the Navy in the above comment?

The most simplistic answer is, joining Naval Special Warfare is a young man's game, SEAL's like Ranger's are the youngest in avg age of the many units within the SOF community, somebody looking to change services is already 5-7 years in with their original branch, SEAL's are notable for the physically taxing tempo they maintain, not to mention their entire mission set is quite specialized when compared to other SOF units or, the entire Navy in-general. Somebody changing services, with the intent of trying-out for BUD/S knows that the drop-rate is quite high, and those who are dropped are cycled into the regular Navy as an undesignated sailor, a distinction that nobody wants.

For Army and AFSOF, while their training for each of their units is hard and anybody changing branches will have to go through its selection process its not the physical kick in the nuts like BUD/S is. For those MARSOC Marines making the change to a differnt SOF unit they're already going to be familiar with small-unit tactics to include the refinement of basic infantry skills, familiarity with various weapons and communication systems, along with undestanding how to process information and disseminating it in an organized manner. From there it's simply learning the specialization of how that unit operates and its unique mission-set. Both the USA and USAF are fairly supportive of their SOF units and there's not the adversarial attitudes that is found within the USMC, a wider range of MOS's are available and career detailers are supportive & available, again something the USMC comes up short.

Interestingly, you don't even have to leave the USMC in order to get on with least one of the Army's special operations units.

For example, Tate Jolly, one of the two Delta Force members who arrived towards the end of the CIA annex battle in Benghazi (of 13 Hours fame) was a Marine who was a member of Delta's B Squadron: https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/9950088305

Yes, but I would imagine that CMC is likely going to stop allowing that. If they haven’t already.

The Marine Corps has always sorta been that person we all know that is obese. But, instead of diet and exercise employs a fad diet every 30 days that never works. They constantly buy something else as the end all be all in the name of “this time we are serious”. The best diets always start on Monday, and Sunday night we’re having two meat lovers large pizzas.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Yes, but I would imagine that CMC is likely going to stop allowing that. If they haven’t already.

I don’t think the CMC would want to get into that “Dick Measuring” contest.
It would come down to who’s got the biggest dick- CMC or OIC of SOCOM / JSOC. Probably would land on SecDef’s desk (officially or unofficially). I think that even the disbanding of MARSOC is going to be between SOCOM / JSOC and The Commandant. Sure, they’re Devil Dogs (and Devil Doc’s), but they fall under a different command.

“That Unit” has had an “open policy” to different branches and MOS’s for probably over 25 years now.
You get the invite, you pass the course, and the training, you’re in.
Granted, the number of people that do from other branches and non Green Berrets / Rangers are very, very small.

They should have listened to President Andrew Jackson in 1834 to have the Marines in the Army, and none of these dick measuring contests would have happened.

I think it's the right choice, ultimately do we need SF marines? Is there some particular thing only THEY can do? Marines are, for good or ill, the shock troops of the DoD they have one very specific sort of job and should be best at that job. That job being "get there now, and kill every last motherfucker walking."

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
They should have listened to President Andrew Jackson in 1834 to have the Marines in the Army, and none of these dick measuring contests would have happened.

That was before the Naval Academy began. Since that time, dick measuring contests between the service branches are inevitable, and usually the competition is somewhat healthy.

All Marines are special, but they should always be the men's department of the Navy.