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Now in Florida |
Those of you who have shipped an AR15 lower to be engraved (for an SBR), how did you ship it? Do you have to go to a UPS hub and declare it or can it just be boxed and sent from the post office? | ||
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Striker in waiting |
It's a serialized lower. It's the only part of an AR that's a gun. Therefore, shipping rules apply. Now... if the question is whether it's a rifle or a handgun, that could be an interesting question. As long as it's a rifle, I bet you could probably make a great argument that you can ship it as such (via USPS). Honestly not sure whether SBR counts as a rifle for USPS shipping purposes. Probably does, though. If the lower is a pistol, you had better go UPS or FedEx. -Rob I predict that there will be many suggestions and statements about the law made here, and some of them will be spectacularly wrong. - jhe888 A=A | |||
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Not really from Vienna |
A serial numbered part like a lower is considered a firearm by the ATF. Below is a link to ATF's website answering your question. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q...gh-us-postal-service | |||
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| Member |
Pre-paid USPS flat rate box with proper insurance. Drop it off at my FFL and he puts it in the mail at no additional cost. Pretty simple if you have a FFL that is a reasonable person (no work really for him). I put his company name, his name and company address as the shipper. I give it to him with the box unsealed in case he needs to add anything inside the box. The "Boz" | |||
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| Victim of a Series of Accidents |
It's a rifle. Ship it by US Mail. "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - Barry Goldwater | |||
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semi-reformed sailor |
Ding Ding Ding.....just get some insurance on it and track it.... "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
Okay, you are not going to like this. First, ACCORDING TO THE US POSTAL SERVICE A SHORT-BARRELLED RIFLE IS A HANDGUN. AND A NON-LICENSEE CANNOT SHIP A HANDGUN VIA THE US MAIL! I'M NOT KIDDING. KEEP READING. I assume the reason for engraving is you have "manufactured" a SBR from an existing receiver. I am also assuming that you have the tax stamp in hand, hence the decision to engrave the "manufacturer's name and place of manufacture" on the receiver. So, it is now an SBR. It does not matter if it has a barrel > 16" or no barrel at all, it is in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) as an SBR and unless you turn in the tax stamp to BATFE, it is an SBR always. As to shipping, the USPS is off the table. Per USPS Publication 52, Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail, Section 43, Firearms, Paragraph 431.2 Handguns:
So, the USPS considers your registered SBR to be a handgun. Per 18 USC 1715, a non-licensee is prohibited from shipping a "handgun" (including SBRs, SBS, and any other firearm capable of being concealed about the person. Should you disregard this prohibition, if caught, because you knowingly deposited for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. Put simply, you loose your right to own a firearm of any kind. This means you have UPS or FEDEX as choices for shipping. FEDEX. Fuck'em. They don't want your business. UPS. You need to simply comply with the applicable provisions of the UPS tariff The tariff states:
So ship UPS, accept that they will sodomize you on price, and go forth and conquer. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Member |
The receiver should have been transferred to the OP as "other" on the 4473. If the OP thought this out the tax stamp comes after the receiver is engraved. I've done it 5 times by priority mail with insurance and tracking, easy peasy. | |||
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| Member |
I always ship mine after I confirm receipt of the Form 1 at the NFA and that it is in the system, but well before it is ever approved. At that time, it is still just an "other" receiver as Alpine stated. I have done this with all 7 of my receivers that later were approved as SBR's. The "Boz" | |||
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| Member |
I would vote that flunks the definition test of the USPS. They don't have an 'other'. The ATF definition is meaningless. Since as a matter of 'fact' you have applied to legally make it an SBR I'm pretty sure its USPS definition is or can be argued to be an SBR or a handgun. But that's a court case that as far as I can see via quick research has not happened. I would simply have my FFL send it and avoid an unnecessary risk. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
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| Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
This. Per USPS Pub. 52, Sec 43, if a firearm is clearly a handgun per BATFE or is otherwise "capable of being concealed on the person" it is a "handgun" under 18 USC 1715. The perfect example is a stripped AR-15 lower. Is it a firearm? YES. Is it a pistol or revolver under 18 USC 921? NO. Is it a firearm "capable of being concealed on the person"? YES. Therefore, per USPS Pub 52, section 43, it is a handgun. A non-licensee ships it via the USPS at their peril. I swear to God, this is why I want to be President Trump's BATFE Director. I will simplify all of this so a person does not need my 30 years of experience unraveling federal regulations to arrive at the correct answer to simple questions like "How do I ship an AR-15 receiver to get it engraved?" Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Member |
Like I said in my original post... I do not personally ship it. My FFL ships it on my behalf via USPS. With insurance, it costs me less than $20. The "Boz" | |||
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Member |
It continues to surprise me...that folks try to ship their own guns for $100 instead of going to their FFL and shipping it for $20-$30. Oh, and if your FFL charges you $75, find another FFL! Risk the consequences of honesty... | |||
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| Member |
Some of you guys like to complicate things. $10.50 to mail a small flat rate shipping box with $200 insurance. I send it directly to the SOT doing the engraving and since engraving is considered a repair the SOT ships directly back to me, no additional tracking of the SN between me and the SOT. The nearest UPS hub is 160 miles away and if I recall correctly both UPS and FedEx require shipment at overnight rates. I suppose there is a risk the package could be ripped open during shipment, the USPS employee would recognize what is was, question how it was transferred on the original 4473, contact the ATF to determine if a form 1 has been submitted, then proceed with an unprecedented court case since this item is not now, but could later be considered a pistol. I take this as a small risk. | |||
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| Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
So your right to own firearms, vote, etc. is worth $40? Yes, the risk is small; however, it exists. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Member |
If you are suggesting I'm committing a felony please elaborate. I am shipping a lawfully acquired serial numbered rifle that has never been designated as being part of a handgun, through the USPS following USPS rules for shipping a rifle. Even if the ATF considers an SBR to be a pistol what does it matter? It was not a SBR/pistol when it was shipped to the SOT, when the SOT had possession, or during the shipment back to me. Once it was returned to me it remained a generic rifle receiver until the form 1 was approved and a tax stamp issued. After the tax stamp is approved this rifle receiver becomes a SBR, that apparently some believe without citation, could possibly be considered a pistol. Once this receiver is an NFA item it is not shipped anywhere. My intent is to follow federal law, what am I missing? If I went down the rabbit hole of thinking about every unknown way the fed could "get" me I would be rocking back and forth in a corner. | |||
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| Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
It is straightforward, if you read the applicable statutes and regulations which I provided links to. Per your statement, you are shipping a firearm, specifically an AR-15 lower receiver from a rifle, that is missing both the barrel and stock. In its shipped configuration it is capable of being shipped in a USPS Priority Mail small box. Thus, it is (1) a firearm, and (2) "capable of being concealed on the person." Per USPS, this is a handgun. It does not matter if it was a lower receiver from a rifle, if it can be concealed on the person, it is a handgun per section 43 of Pub 52 (see link in my first post). Per 18 USC 1715, USPS can establish regulations (e.g., Pub 52) defining what is a handgun and per 18 USC 1715, is nonmailable. USPS did, and included any firearm capable of being concealed on the person. If you violate 18 USC 1715 and are convicted, since it can carry a penalty of more than one year of incarceration, you become a prohibited person. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| Member |
Does a stripped receiver qualify as a "concealable" firearm if it's not a complete weapon? Until it is registered or configured as a short barreled rifle, how is it any different than shipping a stripped bolt action rifle receiver? | |||
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| Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
It is no different when shipping an incomplete bolt action. If the bolt action is a firearm, and can be concealed, shipping via the mail is prohibited (unless you have a FFL). Now, if the stock or barrel is attached, it's not a pistol or revolver, it is not concealable, and is not in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR), ship via the US Mail as a rifle. Is my view conservative? Oh Hell yes. I do not offer views that can get you sent to prison. Especially when that can be avoided for $50. ETA: BATFE says a licensee cannot transfer a stripped AR-15 lower receiver to a person who is under 21 years of age because it could be made into a pistol. This is the same logic as my argument that shipping a stripped AR-15 lower via the United States Postal System crosses the line of 18 USC 1715.This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sig2340, Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up  |
It is considered "other", a stripped receiver is not a rifle nor a pistol. | |||
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