Never start a problem, ALWAYS finish a problem.

Forgiveness is good, but evil does not appreciate the break and until it is stopped by outside forces, it will continue.

When necessary, you don't eliminate just the one fire ant that stung you, you find them and wipe out the mound.

I'm not Christ.

I don't want to be Christ.

For those reasons, do not count on forgiveness from me. Ever.

Forgiveness is not beyond me, especially WRT to family, just not something I'm particularly inclined to if you've betrayed me and show no contrition.

In the case of Mr. Kirk's murder or the murder of innocent folks at the hands of illegals or career criminals, the Leftists soaked the bridge to forgiveness in gasoline, lit it on fire, and then dynamited it.

They did.

Not me.

forgiveness is a weakness

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
forgiveness is a weakness

It's actually not a weakness. God is able to forgive us of any of our sins so we can have salvation through His Son if we repent of our ways. Would you call that a weakness? Jesus forgave the sinner on the cross next to Him. Was that a weakness? I don't think so. It is called "grace" and by grace we are able to be saved.

Sadly we live in a world of hate brought on by the devil and his minions. God gave His Son so that He could be the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. If we have broken even 1 of the commandments, God/Jesus said we are guilty of them all and will go to the lake of fire after judgement for eternity. There is no "working off your debts", after death of your human body, the Bible says, then comes the judgement. Not a second chance, no option to change then, that's it. With Christ there is forgiveness but there must be repentance. God is still in control in this world and one day when He returns, it is not going to be good for those who are not saved and have chosen to not turn to Him.

Not to sound offensive but I don’t believe in gods

So any argument that uses god as a justification for a position is a failure in my eyes

So I reiterate that forgiveness is a weakness that will be exploited by your enemies every time

Can you point to anything that demonstrates conclusively that forgiveness has been the sole reason that a problem has been resolved.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
So I reiterate that forgiveness is a weakness that will be exploited by your enemies every time

Not to sidetrack, but is this where we start to talk about the difference between forgiving and forgetting?

I haven't thought it enough before this thread's creation, but I do believe there's a difference.

Given that, could it be that forgiveness is a strength? A chance rid one's self of the pressure of continuing to live a grievance? A chance to shed hard feelings and negativity, and to pick up following one's path? It doesn't necessarily mean an end to the accountability desired (required?) from the aggrievor (is that a word?), nor a wiping clean of the slate. But it's a chance to stop brewing continued bad feelings (hatred) and creating a "hole in yer belly." Forgetting, I think, is a whole other thing, possibly creating conditions that lead to a repeating of the original offense. As you mention, something for one's enemy to exploit?

Example: There's a rough, crusty mark in my carpet, the shape of an iron. It's there because someone elected not to set up an ironing board, but rather to just iron a shirt on the floor. When the iron-shaped clump of melted carpet appeared, the reaction was not, "oh, my gosh, I'm sorry! How can I make that right?" but instead it was, "ehh, that carpet needed to be replaced anyway." Forgiveness took a very long time; forgetting won't happen until that room's carpet has actually been removed and the joy of the hardwood that will replace it takes hold.

Doing the forgiving required a lot of time and, truly, strength. Strength to overcome ego ("How could you do such a thing?!") and to bring on planning ("How long will it take to save the money to replace that properly?"). Maybe continuing to harbor harsh feelings about it could be construed as the weakness -- a weakness of character?

I'm not pointing fingers here, nor trying to be argumentative. Just tossing out some more discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:
I posted this quote in the Charlie Kirk thread:

My first reaction was, “Can’t we forgive them, then kill them?”, but tatortodd’s response is better.

On a more serious note, while this poor tangled up confused excuse for a young person is deeply puzzled up and maybe should be due some forgiveness because he’s too puzzled up to know what he’s doing, (though he has still earned a trip through the judicial system perhaps up to and including execution), the folks I really want stopped are those who have so polluted what mind he had to radicalize him. The media, the education system, how do we decontaminate them and preclude them from further radicalizing others?

IF YOU DESIRE SOMEONE ELSE'S FORGIVENESS, YOU COMMITTED A BETRAYAL.

Now, why is that important.

Professor Peterson spoke to this directly, and eloquently.

quote:

To confess is to give a detailed and compelling accurate differentiated causal account of the betrayal…

(1) Exactly what happened;
(2) The multiple instances [if any];
(3) My entire set of motivations;
(4) Why I was so angry with you that I thought that this betrayal was acceptable; and
(5) Why I was so impulsive and shallow that I believed that the betrayal was justifiable.

That has to go all the way down to the depths to a depth that's as deep as the betrayal itself and maybe once that confession has been made manifest and a plan has been put forward that is indicative of the willingness and ability to change that are re-configured relationship can be newly established and move forward on that basis but man it's a tough row to hoe.

I do not see the Leftists as even capable of understanding what he said, much less being able to do it, so there is little chance I'll forgive them for anything.

Even if they will eventually burn in hell, it doesn't mean they can't suffer a little in this worldly realm as well!

As a Christian, I understand that the burden (and/or privilege) of apology or forgiveness is mine.

Forgiveness is not issued only after a comprehensive admittance of guilt and apology by the offending party.

If I wrong my neighbor, I am to acknowledge my offensive behavior and issue an honest apology. The opportunity for him to forgive me exists before any of that though.

If I am wronged by my neighbor, I do not withhold forgiveness until an apology is issued. When I, with the help of the Spirit, can reduce my human pride, I will forgive him. Regardless of whether he has apologized or sought forgiveness. Forgiveness ought to be proactive, not reactive.

This is not to say that I personally achieve this high moral standard in my life without fail. This is to say that this is how it ought to be.

Mr. Peterson's comprehensive criteria need not be met for forgiveness to be issued.

I understand that my withholding of either apology or forgiveness can hinder someone's progress in their relationship with Christ. That's a big deal.

I believe we should consistently pray that those we've wronged or been wronged by might be put in our path, that we may have the opportunity to apologize or forgive, if it's God's will.

Roger Miller in the ballad "Code of the West " Do unto others before them others do unto you."


Personally, I'll let the clergy do my forgiving for me.

Then Jesus said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. (Luke 23:34) Jesus didn't forgive them, he asked God to forgive them.

Forgiveness is not absolution. Charlie Kirk’s murderer has not asked, that we know, for forgiveness from the Kirk family. As a Christian, Erika Kirk, is called to forgive. It’s a carthartic act as well for the injured party to release themselves from being consumed by all those feelings one can have. Erika Kirk’s public statement of forgiveness shows have easy it is in the abstract, but takes real strength and fortitude in the raw, immediate timeframe she faced. For the Kirk family, this is just one way for them to manifest their faith

None of this prevents the application and execution of public law in this criminal act. There are always consequences.

Sidebar: just as it is with Christ’s admonition to turn the other cheek, there is no requirement that one puts themselves in any position of risk, endangerment, etc. for giving forgiveness.

quote:

Originally posted by BGULL:
It’s a carthartic act as well for the injured party to release themselves from being consumed by all those feelings one can have.

Well-stated.
Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
Not to sound offensive but I don’t believe in gods

So any argument that uses god as a justification for a position is a failure in my eyes

So I reiterate that forgiveness is a weakness that will be exploited by your enemies every time

Can you point to anything that demonstrates conclusively that forgiveness has been the sole reason that a problem has been resolved.

There are lots of them. Many stories of people going to prison who have learned the error of their ways and made a connection w/ the family they had wronged.
Not all Hallmark stories are fiction.

Forgiveness is about solving the problem, in yourself.

It’s a fundamental part of processing the trauma, and moving on with your life.

quote:

Originally posted by bdylan:
Forgiveness is somewhat overrated. I've forgiven peoples for all kinds of transgressions over the years, and it's just never given me a warm, pleasant feeling. In our modern society, many people interpret forgiveness as a fundamental weakness.

Which dovetails nicely with the previous poster who said forgiveness is meant for the repentant. Forgive any cutthroat and he will kill you when you turn around and are not looking.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
Not to sound offensive but I don’t believe in gods

So any argument that uses god as a justification for a position is a failure in my eyes

So I reiterate that forgiveness is a weakness that will be exploited by your enemies every time

Can you point to anything that demonstrates conclusively that forgiveness has been the sole reason that a problem has been resolved.

Only western civilization, our willingness to forgive one another is it's entire foundation.

I always tell people that I'm the best non-Christian friend that Christians have. Just because I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead after three days and ascended to Heaven (which is the absolutely essential belief for Christians), doesn't mean I'm a heathen ignorant of scripture.

Here's a fella with a youtube channel on guns and knives, a salt of the earth Southern man, a bona fide Born Again Christian, who ends all his videos with a reading of scripture. Today's reading is apt to this conversation. Who knows, maybe his selection was prompted by the discussion in this country of events of late.

Whatever the case, he's got that light shining out of him that I've seen coming from former hell-raisers cleansed in the blood of Christ.

Nothing fancy, but worth a listen, I think.

Amen, very appropriate.