quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
The other direction is when our views differ. Apparently the Jews (according to doctrine implied in the article) will not extend forgiveness to an offending party until certain apology criteria is met.

This doesn't differ from Christian teaching.

I hate when people say "Scripture says...", because it is most often taken out of context, but Luke 17:3-4 is pretty clear.

As I stated earlier, forgiveness is reserved for the repentant.

It could be argued that the Luke 17 reference is in the context of fellow believers.

Of course it could. People can, and do, argue about every word in the bible. That's why you have the Orthodox/Catholic and 1000 Protestant sects throughout the world. The passage is clear to any rational person.

IMO, to forgive an unrepentant person is foolishness, and serves only to create more victims.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
…forgiveness is reserved for the repentant.

Exactly my position, also. You can forgive all you want, and it might somehow make you feel good for doing so, but to the unrepentant, it means nothing. Actually, it means only one thing, and that is the lake of fire. The Bible is crystal clear on this.

So how can we reconcile these?

Matthew 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

Colossians 3:13 "Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Ephesians 4:32 "And be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

Luke 23:34 "Then said Jesus, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.' And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

Did we earn God's forgiveness? He offers it before we are repentant. While we were yet sinners.

If I am missing something, show me. I am here to learn. I am grateful for these discussions.

As another reference point: paragraph 2840 in the Catholic Catechism...

"Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of (God's) mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see. In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father's merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace."

To me, this implies either gracious forgiveness of those who have offended us or... the confession of the sin of withholding forgiveness.

quote:

but to the unrepentant, it means nothing

What does it mean to God?

I admit that I have not been up against a situation in my life in which what Christ would have me do in the way of forgiveness has been truly gut-wrenching. I know men who have. Christian men who were falsely accused of sexual misconduct and/or infidelity. In their sharing of their tribulations, they never spoke of withholding forgiveness until it was earned. They had much to say about knowing what Christ would have them do, struggling with it, praying about it, and ultimately forgiving those who accused them.

Again, you and I can say we forgive all we want, but the unrepentant do not want it. Jesus told us to forgive. Sure, no problem. He asked the Father to forgive “them”. But, the unrepentant reject it all. They, “the unbelieving”, reject God. Hence, the lake of fire is reserved for them, when Judgment Day comes. It was written. It shall be done. Why make a simple thing complicated?

Not trying to make a simple thing complicated. And not arguing in opposition of your statement concerning the unrepentant and the lake of fire. Just stressing the fact that Christ would have us, as Christians, forgive our fellow man. Whether the offender has "earned it" or not. Whether he's repentant or not. It was written.

If the offender is unrepentant, that is, as you say, between him and God on Judgement Day.

The offenders repentance, or lack thereof, is of no consequence when we're considering our forgiving him man-to-man. If the offender wants to be that way, it'll be between him and God. Our relationship with God is kept righteous, however, in our forgiveness.

Our pride in withholding forgiveness that we don't perceive as "earned" hinders our relationship with God.

That is that way I understand it. Based on scripture, study and fellowship, and even the Catechism of an "opposing" branch of the Christian faith.

We should be less worried about whether the offender's repentance is genuine, and more worried about the honesty of our forgiveness.

And we can't know another's heart. There may be a sliver of repentance in an outwardly unrepentant person. Our forgiveness may serve to water the seed of their potential relationship with Christ.

At the risk of sounding self-righteous, I'll qualify all this with Romans 3:23. Talking about what we know and/or believe to be the standard of Christ-like performance is not to imply that we think we even come close to achieving it.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Why make a simple thing complicated?

Analysis paralysis.

Yeah, we’re going around and down the “rabbit hole” here, and I ain’t coming. And with that, I’m climbing out.