Ok Sigchump we can have it out if you'd like, I've only ever had an anti-coercion, anti-violence, antiwar stance. You may want to give Psalm 7 a read.

So,
No you can't. Just some name calling BS. People who don't profess undying, unquestionable support for Israel's actions are not anti-semite. At most, I don't really care one way or the other. Most of the justification put forth has been Biblical related. Without that, what is your argument is what I asked. I guess that hurt your feels

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Well, let's get this party started.

I am calling out FenderLips, oldbillThreeinOneOil, VashtiKoff and any of you other haters of either/and/or the Jews/Israel.

And, yeah, I am gonna bring the Bee EYE Bee El Eee into the forefront, because:
"This is my book. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My TANAK* (Bible) is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My Bible, without me, is useless. Without my Bible, I am useless."

(*TANAK, Torah, (Law/Path/Direction) Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim(Writings) what people call "The Old Testament)

I know about honey vs vinegar for attracting flies, but I am all out of Milk and Honey.


Here is someone I met many years ago (86-87) in dialog after the Falash Mura (Ethiopian Jews) were brought back to Israel in large numbers, being the descendants from the time of Solomon and the "Queen of Sheba".

Watch his video about Iran vs Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/@SimchaJacoboviciTV


Then provide me verifiable and empirical proof and data that Israel/Zionists/Jews in any form or fashion that shows them to be a threat to the world, greater than Iran, the Islamic Republic, and/or the People if Iran.

Let's run this until there is crystal clear factual proof of one or the other.

In the Spirit of Eliyahu Ha'Navi (Elijah the Prophet) vs the 400 Prophets of Ba'al and Queen Jezebel.

All you and other do is dance around the edge of making a full on statement or position. Because I believe you and your arguments are weak and you dare not make the stand.

Choose today where you stand.

Either you have the balls or you don't.


The only one that can walk me back, is the owner of this forum.
And I support him if he smacks me to the curb.

I just guess it's OK for the islamic nations to have genocide as part of their doctrine.

Iran has been funding terror globally, funding the Houthis that have been attacking our shipping assets.

I get exactly why the Jew haters are so angry and shitting their diapers is that the shithead drones are now cut off from being supplied to Russia.

It seems to me, an atheist, that if the non-Jews stopped attacking Israel then there would be no violence from Israel towards them.

As to the issue of the founding of the modern country, that was unambiguously done due to the genocides across Europe, which were part of a pre-existing widespread anti-Semitism.

Ergo, Israel exists because of the many centuries of anti-Jew hatred.

To claim that aggression against Jews or against Israel is a new thing caused by the founding of the modern country of Israel is to invert the historical sequence of events.

Ain't no Biblical references in any of that, tyvm.

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:


Wow, I'm ..., agnostic as hell, ...

Nice turn of phrase.

Does on have to “profess undying, unquestionable support for Israel” to give it/them the benefit of the doubt? It’s a State, run by a host of humans with a spectrum of opinions and perspectives. Of course mistakes happen. That’s why it’s prudent to live and let live. Poke that bear and be prepared for consequences; some of which may be unintentional. I think the point is to distinguish between individual behaviors and the collective.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Israel has ever acted (militarily) in an unprovoked offensive fashion. Rather, they have only fought defensively. This, to me, shows that they simply want to be left alone to live how they choose...not unlike myself and many here.

Is there corruption there? Sure. Name one country where that is not the case.

Do they spy on other nations, including us? Sure. Name one country that doesn't.

Are they going to always act in their own best interests? Yep. Name one country that doesn't.

Even if you can't stand the state of Israel, or Jews in general, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Israel and Judaism is not our enemy, but islam most certainly is. It is a cancer on humanity.

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
Ok Sigchump we can have it out if you'd like, I've only ever had an anti-coercion, anti-violence, antiwar stance. You may want to give Psalm 7 a read.

I am very familiar with The Book.
Your understanding of this passage and it's meaning are off, in the same way as anti 2nd folks are about the 2nd and thinking "well regulated" means controlled and submissive collective group(Militia) to the Government. That it was limited to the weapons of the day, and not the individual's right, nor to defend from tyranny.

This passage is not about pacifism, rather David's knowing that he was blameless against accusations and asking G-d to examine David's heart and reveal his weakness and failings in "walking upright".

David was anything but a pacifist. He was a warrior and in this case, he was facing threat of murder from Saul who was jealous even though G-d had ordained David as his successor.

David had opportunity and ability to kill Saul, but he did not want to harm him, and instead "fought within himself" as penned in this portion of Psalms and declaring his knowing that in the end, his trust and faith in G-d would result in his prevailing.

Perhaps I missed in the past where you made this declaration of pacifism.

I will do my best with you, to keep this in mind when I read your posts, as it does give it different context.

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
So,
No you can't. Just some name calling BS. People who don't profess undying, unquestionable support for Israel's actions are not anti-semite. At most, I don't really care one way or the other. Most of the justification put forth has been Biblical related. Without that, what is your argument is what I asked. I guess that hurt your feels...

No hurt feels...

Ironic that those who do not care one way or the other keep "othering" without stating their true position, and that's disingenuous.


You stated before: "It would help to explain support for Israel without using any Biblical reference or belief. If there was no Bible, would the support be the same?"

Without the Bible there would be no Jews/Israel, without the Jews/Israel, there would be no Bible.

Both are the epitome of each.

However, Israel and Jews have existed far before Islam was created in 610 by one whom was taught both Judaism and Christianity in the late 6th century, and when his brand of religion was rejected, his anger, pride and jealousy inflamed him and some of his followers.

The result was a conquest of brutality, slaughter and enslavement.

Throughout time and history, the Jewish people have remains distinct and never gave up the desire and efforts to return to their homeland, and there has always been a Jewish presence in that land since Abraham.

The Jewish people began returning in larger numbers in the late 1800s, and from that time forward, purchased land from those who were there, as well as settled land that were unoccupied and barren.

The Jewish people did not take this land by force, and even the break up of the Ottoman Empire, and the ruling under British and French until the declaration of of the State in '47 was to provide a large area for the State of Israel/Jewish people, even though it kept getting walked back, the Jewish people were working toward that understanding as it was the right of Britain to decide.

WWII brought greater violence into play with the Arabs who were in the lands of the former Ottoman Empire, and Germany's Nazi's goal of destroying the Jewish people extended to the land because they desired to not permit the Jews a place to flee where they might constitute a greater and cohesive community, so they worked with the Arabs to be part of their program in the middle east.

Israel's declaration of statehood fell on the final hour of Britan's rule, and when that mandate expired, 5 Arab states simultaneously attacked Israel, and this state of war has existed for 77 years. Israel has done very much toward peaceful solutions again and again.

The fight is always to strengthen the ability to defend and survive.

When in war, Israel goes beyond anyone else to mitigate casualties to innocents, warning before strikes even to the detriment of success of destroying materiel and combatants who flee, and remove weapons from an area.

Certainly Israel is not the same in every sense as America in how they run their country, make law, and deal with things.

But they are not the problem in the Middle East.

Anymore than Americans are the problem in America.

If Israel has no "legitimate right" to the land, and the right to defend as they deem necessary for survival and the desire to have peace, what right does America have to this land?

And no quoting the Bible allowed.

What Monkey said.

@sigmonkey

Well said

Man, this is the gold medal event for the mental gymnastics.

It isn’t a heavy lift.

Could you imagine on 09/12 saying “I don’t support America, but that doesn’t mean I’m unAmerican” and trying to do that with a straight face?

It’s simple. Either you support a fight with terrorism or you don’t. If you don’t, cool. But, stop trying to be all noble and shit with your reasoning on why you believe these scumbags need to be allowed to suck air and pump blood. About the only thing we apparently have in common is the people you are defacto supporting in this beef wants both of us dead equally.

I just want our allies (like Israel) to break their will first.

The math isn’t hard, and you don’t have to blame the Bible (or whatever other phobias you have) for the explanation. Somehow I think it must be misery. “Hey, I heard you have cancer, but rest assured just because I don’t support you it doesn’t mean I support cancer”

Oh, look. Mr. death-to-America has now agreed to a cease fire and wants to engage in peace talks.

How could that be?

Putting aside the bible, which is not just part of our lives, it is inherent in everything we do;

We have always, throughout time, been taught to read, write, learn and excel at math when others did not hold those disciplines to be important.

We've always been taught to overachieve and excel, no excuses.

We have always tried to hold ourselves to a higher moral and ethical standard.

We've been doctors, scientists, lawyers, businessmen, and other professions that took time and effort to achieve. We've been bankers when others didn't want to be bankers, when it was frowned upon - helping to finance wars and facilitate peace

Our hard work has led to a disproportionate level of Nobel prizes, business success, and yes, military success, especially when there is no choice and all around us were those who want to kill us.

Over time, that has seriously pissed off a lot of people - not just because we continue to succeed, but more, despite the hatred. We still try harder

When we were the underdogs after WWII, we were treated with pity and the second we succeeded, that stopped.

Mistakes, yes, plenty. There have been bad actors that call themselves Jews, and even true believers who have caused America and others harm. that is not the norm over a long history
Chosen? Maybe to get our asses kicked and persecuted forever.

Any Jew that believes he/she is special and chosen to be put on a pedestal is not following the correct path.

Any Jew who is intent on undermining or maligning this country is one of two things (or both): a coward or forgetful of their identity.

Do we control the world? Sure - that's why we have been persecuted, vilified and been the target of so much hatred and violence.

Do we pity ourselves? No. we make no excuses, don't care about PR, we just live life, and treat others with what we've been taught as the overriding lesson: Treat others as you want to be treated yourself. Love others as you love yourself.

After all that, we still exist, and in the current climate, Israel exists as a country, with its own army. The County of Israel has an amazing ally in and to the US, which we share IT, military, scientific and medical technology, proudly and with true appreciation, sharing results with America.

While living in the United States, we understand the privilege and honor it is to be an American - and the unique relationship with a Country that allows an American to serve in the IDF, legally and with honor.

And we never forget - the hatred and persecution shown towards Jews, all for being moral and ethical, is the same hatred shown towards America for being the same.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
It’s not the main reason people hate Israel today, but for centuries up until fairly recently the roots of antisemitism could be traced back to Matthew 27:25...

Ironically, Islam recognizes Jews and Christians as being “people of the book” who are supposed to be tolerated...

I grew up in various churches with my family. I returned to Christianity about 30 years ago and I have been active in my church, as well as visiting and working with other churches in that time.

Never in my life have I heard any Christian express the sentiment you claim, either from this verse, or any portion of the Bible. It would take a very unenlightened view, to put it mildly, to twist that scripture, or the Gospels, into hate for the Jews.

Outside of Pontius Pilate, his soldiers and any of their families, almost everyone in the Gospels is Jewish. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. His 12 disciples were all Jewish. Certainly, almost 100% of His followers during His ministry here were Jewish. Joseph of Arimathea, the wealthy man that provided Jesus' tomb for burial was Jewish. Nicodemus was a Pharisee who believed that Jesus is the Messiah and defended Him before the Sanhedrin. Paul (Saul of Tarses) was a Pharisee who became a believer in Jesus Christ and prolific spreader of the Gospel.

The scripture in Matthew 27 is simply reflecting a crowd that was whipped into a mob mentality by those who were in opposition to Jesus. This was one side versus the other, inside the Jewish community. One side who embraced Jesus as the Messiah, and the other side who did not. It wasn't Jews versus the Christians; "Christians", per se, did not even exist yet.

But much bigger than this is the overall theme of Christ's crucifixion. Pontius Pilate may have ordered it, Roman soldiers may have performed it, the ruling majority of Sanhedrin may have pushed for it, but all of us, all of mankind, nailed Christ to that Cross. Our sin put Him there. Christ willingly laid down his life to take the punishment, the lashes, and the sacrifice on the cross, to take our sins on His shoulders.
-Isaiah 53: 3-6.

All of the first believers were Jewish, and it stayed that way for a while. Among the first debates in this community of Christ followers was whether to spread the Gospel to the gentiles, and under what conditions gentiles would be accepted into the faith -Acts 10, 13, 15, 21.

The take you have offered is absolutely absurd. Have people perverted Scripture (Old and New Testament) to achieve an end? Sure. Is someone who intentionally perverts Scripture a Christian? Definitively, no. Christ said that a tree is known by the fruit it bears. - Luke 6:43-45

Christ also said that there will be those who will call His name (calling themselves Christian) and He will tell them to depart from Him because He never knew them. - Matthew 7:21-23

Lastly, what you have described is a twisting of the scripture designed to create hate. In the Beatitudes, Christ took the Commandments to a higher level of understanding. Among many things, He said that to hate someone is to commit murder in God's eyes. - Matthew 5:21-22, I John 3:15



Regarding what you assert in the Quran.

Yes, Muhammed does say that the People of the Book are to be respected. But leaving this as your only reference shows an extremely, extremely limited knowledge of Muhammed and Islam. When he realized that Jews and Christians were not going buy into his new "revelation" and recognize him as a prophet, Muhammed said to:

Fight the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya(tribute tax to Muhammed) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. -Surah 9:29

He said they are deluded from the truth and have Allah's curse on them. -Surah 9:30

He said the People of the Book take their priests to be their lords in derogation of Allah. -Surah 9:31

He said to not take Jews and Christians as friends, because they are friends of each other. - Surah 5:51

He said he is messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against the disbelievers, and merciful among themselves only. - Surah 48:29

He said he has been commanded to fight those who will not say there is no god but Allah. -Sahih Muslim 30

He said he will expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula until there are only Muslims left. - Sahih Muslim 4366

There's more, but I think this is enough to make the point. If it isn't, then I invite you to study the life of Muhammed. Then study the life of Jesus Christ. The two lives are 180 degrees opposite of each other.


.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

No hurt feels...

Ironic that those who do not care one way or the other keep "othering" without stating their true position, and that's disingenuous.

Boom! 100% accurate and well-said, sigmonkey.



.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
Ok Sigchump we can have it out if you'd like, I've only ever had an anti-coercion, anti-violence, antiwar stance. You may want to give Psalm 7 a read.

I am very familiar with The Book.
Your understanding of this passage and it's meaning are off, in the same way as anti 2nd folks are about the 2nd and thinking "well regulated" means controlled and submissive collective group(Militia) to the Government. That it was limited to the weapons of the day, and not the individual's right, nor to defend from tyranny.

This passage is not about pacifism, rather David's knowing that he was blameless against accusations and asking G-d to examine David's heart and reveal his weakness and failings in "walking upright".

David was anything but a pacifist. He was a warrior and in this case, he was facing threat of murder from Saul who was jealous even though G-d had ordained David as his successor.

David had opportunity and ability to kill Saul, but he did not want to harm him, and instead "fought within himself" as penned in this portion of Psalms and declaring his knowing that in the end, his trust and faith in G-d would result in his prevailing.

Perhaps I missed in the past where you made this declaration of pacifism.

I will do my best with you, to keep this in mind when I read your posts, as it does give it different context.

I'm glad to have come to peace with you. My world view is broadly based on two Jewish thinkers Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard, if you understand them you'll understand my position.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Backlash to boomers being brainwashed by evangelicalism into worshipping a foreign nation, and putting their desires ahead of Americas.

I am a boomer, maybe the tail end of that generation, but still a boomer. To my knowledge, we were the first generation in America to be sold, en masse, on the idea that we were smarter and more knowledgable than our parents. We believed it, at least a lot of us did.

We were dead wrong, and it took some maturing to understand that fact.

So when you come here and say that boomers are simply brainwashed, and that you have a better, and deeper, grasp of knowledge, you are wearing the recycled leisure suits of our generation. And they look even worse on you.



.

drtenb330 said what I boil down to, by their fruits ye shall know them. Those fruits do create envy and bitterness in some people. This can lead to a willingness to believe propaganda and mythology. Ignorance generally yields prejudice and bigotry. As a rule, I admire those who produce good fruit so I’m partial to Israel. Plus I don’t like bullies.

Is there distinction between spiritual Israel and political Israel? What I’m asking is if someone dislikes what they perceive as an opportunistic government can that be separated from hatred for the rabbinical Jewish cult?