quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
Oh, so the motorcycle rider isn't showing the video of himself going 100+ MPH?

Why not? What's he hiding.

The cop is welcome in my neighborhood anytime, but the kid, not so much.

See, there you go. Taking the word of a power hungry asshole over an actual video. Can't a guy just ride a motorcycle anymore without being looked at like a plague upon humanity?

If you believe that he was running 100+, explain a few things for me:
1. Where is the cruisers on board dash cam video proving that?
2. How was the guy able to not only chase down, but catch up to someone that was rolling past @ 100+ MPH?
3. Even if he were going 100+, what justification would he have had to shoot the guy? So why draw anyway?
4. What about the liability of shooting one of the many innocent people that was present during this shitshow?

I'd imagine that last little bit would be making most cities squirm. Think about the potential payout that would come from a negligent discharge or poor shot placement if this asshole had actually pulled the trigger and hit someone. The city (taxpayers) could have been on the hook for quite a chunk of change....and for what? A speeding ticket? Go on with that bullshit!

Now, it's been pointed out several times now, but let's go over it again. There is no video evidence (whether from the guy on the bike, or the police, or a security camera on a business, or someone taking a cellphone video of a pretty pretty rainbow over yonder), so why keep asking? The point is that their internal investigation has determined that the cop was in fact wrong. Why is that so hard to understand?

When this was posted before, there was a video and I saw it.


Yes the guy on the bike was doing over 100MPH and was weaving in and out, and looking around, and just before this part that is available, he shot past the cop, and the cop caught him at the light.
Oh, I forgot to add, in that video you could see the blue flashing lights, so I am pretty certain the guy on the bike knew he was a cop.

As for all the other arguments, (and I am not taking any side, only providing some thoughts), how many times have we seen it stated that a person in or on a motor vehicle has in their have a tool that can be used with deadly force?

The guy was breaking the law, the law(man) stepped in, and in the context and perception he was involved with the incident, the law(man) seems to have picked up on something we don't have the luxury of knowing, or he went off the reservation.

But, I would hope and expect his history be looked at, and what of the guy on the bike?

What is his record?

Sometimes it is an asshole who is a cop, and sometimes it is an asshole stopped by a cop.

Sometimes it's an all around shit show with assholes on every side.

As long as there is police and non-police, a situation is going to occur.

Think of why that is. Think real hard.

Now, can we truly expect any other outcome?

Internal Investigation Findings and Recommendations

A good read.
Officer Rowe is documented as being a liar in his statements of the event.

Officer Rowe is documented as having a similar complaint from an earlier incident that he should have learned from.

The officer has zero credibility.

Read the report.
Only question is why was he not fired, being this his second incident of a similar nature.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
Again, I ask.... Where the heck is the video of what occurred 3 minutes before the encounter.

Why is that video not at least available for our viewing?

I just don't feel like I'm getting to see the whole story here.

Something triggered the cop -- what was it? Why is there not video of it?

I'm no fan of speeders or hot-dog motorcyclists. That said, the cop obviously has a hair trigger. How many times have you been shown the business end of a pistol for allegedly speeding?

King County Use of Force Guidelines.

quote:

DEADLY FORCE, USE OF: 06/92
RCW 9A.16 establishes a higher standard for the police officer than the private citizen in the application of deadly force.
1. Deputies shall exhaust every reasonable means of apprehension before resorting to the use of deadly force.
2. Firearms shall not be drawn or pointed unless a deputy has reason to believe that their use may be required.
3. When necessary, a deputy may generally use deadly force only when both of the following elements exist:
a. Either to overcome actual resistance to the execution of the legal process, mandate, order of a court or officer, or in the discharge of a legal duty, or to arrest a person who the deputy reasonably believes has committed, has attempted to commit, is committing, is attempting to commit a felony; and
b. The deputy has probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the deputy or others.
4. The threat of serious physical harm includes, but is not limited to, cases in which:
a. An armed suspect threatens someone or displays a weapon in a threatening manner; or
b. It is reasonably believed that the suspect committed or attempted to commit a crime of
violence involving either actual or threatened serious physical injury.

Just why did he have his roscoe out?

Per witness statement officer Rowe had his handgun out upon exiting his vehicle.
The report indicates officer Rowe lied about when and why he drew his weapon.

The report also found that the drawing of the weapon did not comport with department guidelines, and was not "objectively reasonable" given all of the circumstances.

It also found that drawing a weapon wasn't "physical force" but acknowledged that the motorcyclist understood it to be "force". As would any reasonable person, you would think.

The investigating officer makes it pretty clear that he thinks Rowe has issues, which is why he includes the earlier complaints in his report. He also says that if the motorcyclist hadn't video recorded the incident, he feels it would have been unsustained. That statement right there is one hell of an indictment of the entire system.

Ok, I read the document at the link that kimber1911
provided.

I now agree. The deputy is in the wrong.

But I'm holding my position that the motorcyclist is no angel either.

quote:

Originally posted by arfmel:

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
Again, I ask.... Where the heck is the video of what occurred 3 minutes before the encounter.

Why is that video not at least available for our viewing?

I just don't feel like I'm getting to see the whole story here.

Something triggered the cop -- what was it? Why is there not video of it?

I'm no fan of speeders or hot-dog motorcyclists. That said, the cop obviously has a hair trigger. How many times have you been shown the business end of a pistol for allegedly speeding?

I feel radioman needs to tell his wife, daughter, mother, and/or girlfriend how he feels a non-uniformed cop is allowed to pull a loaded weapon on them and be an a-hole toward them while doing it and further, that radioman will justify said cop's actions regardless of the results.

quote:

But I'm holding my position that the motorcyclist is no angel either.

Agreed. But he needs to be treated with the respect and safety owed to a citizen. That is where the cop went wrong.

The motorcyclist is no angel I am sure. But as a rider I can tell you maneuverability, and speed are at least twice as controllable as a automobile. So 100mph feels like 50mph. And you can stop twice as fast. Accelerate twice as fast. And if something goes wrong it's not a Excursion taking out a Honda civic. So putting pepole's lives at risk--not near as much as parking a car in the center of the road.

Lying in an official statement should be grounds enough for termination. It's proven he lied about when he pulled out his firearm, among other things. Open and shut...he should be gone.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:

quote:

But I'm holding my position that the motorcyclist is no angel either.

Agreed. But he needs to be treated with the respect and safety owed to a citizen. That is where the cop went wrong.

Not only to the motorcyclist, but those around him too. I'd imagine that some of us would be quite upset if our loved ones were shot by a stray bullet accidentally or purposely fired by Occifer Douchebadge, all because someone was speeding on a motorcycle. This incident could have cost a lot of money and still has the potential to. I bet there is a lawyer somewhere looking to file a civil suit on Mr. MC riders behalf.

Even if the motorcyclist was speeding at some point, looks like he was at a a full stop at a stoplight. No reason to pull the gun unless ha planned on shooting him if he were to make a run.

I've had interactions with three KCSO in the last 7.5 years. One was great, young man in his 20's and super courteous and polite. The two older fellows in the late 40', early 50's weren't so awesome. First marked unit was a fellow in his 20's, I was ten over on the interstate and he was super professional and courteous and appreciated being informed I was carrying, reduced the ticket.

The second unit that grabbed me for ten over went to lawman ready and seemed shaky and nervous once I informed him I was a licensed CWP who was armed (same routine with all three, mind you), and upon seeing that, I narrated every move before I made it and I made every move at one third speed reaching for my wallet, turning my ass up at him so he could see from the passenger side. When it was all over, he commended me on my actions and urged me to "do it just like that, every time and everything will be fine."

The third fellow was in an unmarked unit and pulled me over on I5N out of Tacoma after I was cut off by two different drivers and aggressively pulled away from them. I thought I heard a "whoop" over the radio, so I turned it off and slowed down. Then I looked over and there's this guy in a gray Dodge Charger mean-mugging me. I pull over to the last lane from the right and he's right on my ass with that same angry look, so I pulled away from him, feeling the aggression. Wrong move. Lights came on and I got my ass chewed hard for interrupting him leaving work to see his kid's ball game, and an angry "That's great, don't touch it and I won't draw mine!" The only reason I knew he was KCSO was the lights and that he said he was, except he didn't draw on me because I kept my hands on the steering wheel.

No ticket on that last stop, btw. He issued me a ration of crap because I cut him off (and he could only get one out of the pack) and let me go. I was not happy about that interaction and being threatened with, in his words, over $700 in tickets before he even made it back to his car to run my license. I apologized for making him late to his kid's ballgame and he flipped my license and insurance at me and walked away.

That last stop kept running through my mind watching the video. There's policing, then there's horseshit.

quote:

Originally posted by scsigs:
Even if the motorcyclist was speeding at some point, looks like he was at a a full stop at a stoplight. No reason to pull the gun unless ha planned on shooting him if he were to make a run.

That was his stated intent.

Officer Rowe threatened to "dump" him if he moved the bike.
The internal report states that this could have been interpreted to mean, either shoot him or push the bike over.

I believe it was clearly a threat to shoot.

This guy will either end up killing someone who didn't need killing or he will get himself killed unnecessarily.

Not casting judgement but I’ll offer a few facts just to stir the pot a bit...


1. For KCSO, a 10 day suspension IS, in fact, a pretty stiff and serious penalty. Suspensions are unpaid and I promise you an 18 year veteran, working as a detective is pulling down a very good wage. My ball park guess is those 10 days cost him between $3000-$4000 in lost wages. Not exactly a “paid” vacation. Of course he did enjoy an extended paid vacation for several months on admin leave while the investigation slowly grinded on.

2. While it is reasonable to think the blame lands on the County or Sheriff in such cases of apparent “light” discipline instead of being fired, that isn’t necessarily true. Combine a very strong officers guild with a lenient liberal state and it becomes very difficult at times for a tough Sheriff to effectively discipline deputies.


A couple of past examples include a Deputy who after several at fault on duty traffic accidents and I imagine paying off settlement to those he hit, due to arbitration and other issues he couldn’t be fired. For liability county wasn’t going to let him drive either. Now KCSO runs single deputy patrol units, the exception was this guy who got a “partner” and was the only 2 Deputy car working patrol.

Then there was WTO and Deputy Vanderwalker, jack-booted thug extraordinaire. He was the one who face painted a compliant “Protester” who was kneeling on the sidewalk in non-threatening and non-violent manner with half a can of CS before planting a foot in her chest, knocking her backwards to the ground. Sheriff (now Congressman) Dave Reichert, fired him pretty quickly over the incident.

Guild fought and an arbitrator eventually awarded him his job back to include of a years worth of back pay. Oh, was also awarded “extra” back pay based on OT or off-duty work he “might” have done during that year as well.

The reason? In part of the conclusion, the Sheriff noted his belief that Vanderwalker lied to the investigator when he recounted the events since his statements were contradictory and counter to the statements of others. Any reasonable person would realize the termination was for the actions and the lie was just icing to show the type of person he was. Turns out that arbitrators don’t believe that it can be proved that someone lied unless the person actually admits to lying. Otherwise it is just a misperception or misremembered event (otherwise known as the Oliver North “I do not recall” defense.)

Since lying was addressed in the conclusion and they didn’t believe it had been sufficiently proven to have happened, the termination was reversed.


“Right” and “Wrong” seem to be simple concepts but unfortunately once unions, politics, and ideologies get involved shit gets muddied up real quick.

He lied. It is documented and supported by the investigation.

Every single time he goes to court in the future the defense attorney is going to bring it up and ask if he is lying this time too.

And the major who said pulling his gun and pointing it at the motorcyclist is not force?!?!?

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:


...The third fellow was in an unmarked unit and pulled me over on I5N out of Tacoma after I was cut off by two different drivers and aggressively pulled away from them. I thought I heard a "whoop" over the radio, so I turned it off and slowed down. Then I looked over and there's this guy in a gray Dodge Charger mean-mugging me. I pull over to the last lane from the right and he's right on my ass with that same angry look, so I pulled away from him, feeling the aggression. Wrong move. Lights came on and I got my ass chewed hard for interrupting him leaving work to see his kid's ball game, and an angry "That's great, don't touch it and I won't draw mine!" The only reason I knew he was KCSO was the lights and that he said he was, except he didn't draw on me because I kept my hands on the steering wheel...

Not doubting the interaction or events, but I would bet money it was not KCSO. Last time they had any Chrysler vehicles Lee Iococa was still running the business. Was a time Deputies with Aspens would always take lead in a pursuit hoping to wreck and get a shiny new Crown Vic.

Lots of agencies in the area jumped on the Charger bandwagon KCSO did not.