A white guy randomly shot and killed three people in a Denver area Walmart Wednesday, it may not have made national news. For details see www.denverpost.com

This article blames CCW holders who drew (none fired) for the five hour delay in IDing the shooter who was arrested the next day.

http://www.denverpost.com/2017...-drawing-guns-chaos/

Panicked people, shoppers drawing guns created chaos, delayed investigation into Thornton Walmart shooting

Five hours passed between the shooting and the ID of a suspect

By NOELLE PHILLIPS | nphillips@denverpost.com and KEVIN SIMPSON | ksimpson@denverpost.com | The Denver Post

PUBLISHED: November 2, 2017 at 7:22 pm | UPDATED: November 3, 2017 at 12:34 am

Five hours passed between the time a gunman started firing shots inside a Thornton Walmart and the time when police released a picture of a suspect and his car, but police never warned residents during that period that a potentially armed and dangerous person was on the loose.

The chaos of panicked people running out of the store, shoppers who pulled their own guns and multiple victims created a difficult situation for police and slowed their investigation.

Meanwhile, the suspected gunman, Scott Ostrem, remained at-large until he was captured by police at 8:11 a.m. Thursday about six miles from the scene, stuck in rush-hour traffic in Westminster.

The police department, however, never activated its Reverse 911 system, which alerts residents about emergency situations, to caution people about an armed suspect and how to protect themselves. Instead, the department relied on its Twitter account and the news media to keep area residents abreast of the developing situation, said Officer Victor Avila, a Thornton Police Department spokesman.

“As far as being second-guessed about what we didn’t do, I wouldn’t want to elaborate on that now,” Avila said.

Ostrem was being held Thursday night on three counts of suspicion of murder. No bond had been set, and he was scheduled to appear in Adams County District Court at 11 a.m. Friday. No motive for the shooting has been determined.

The shots were reported at 6:10 p.m. Wednesday, and Thornton police sent the first tweet about it at 6:27 p.m.

The first officers on scene needed to assess the situation and develop a strategy to go inside because it was unknown whether the shooter was dead or alive and whether he was still inside or already fleeing with the store’s customers and employees, Avila said. Police teams searched the other stores in the Thornton Town Center and the surrounding area.

Police also had to make sure paramedics and EMTs could safely reach victims. And then once they determined the store was secure, detectives escorted a store employee back inside to begin reviewing security video footage from the dozens of cameras in the store and the shopping center parking lot.

When detectives began reviewing video footage, they noticed multiple people drawing guns, Avila said. That slowed the process of identifying who and how many suspects were involved in the shooting, he said.

“Once the building was safe enough to get into it, we started reviewing that (surveillance video) as quickly as we could,” he said. “That’s when we started noticing” that a number of individuals had pulled weapons. “At that point, as soon as you see that, that’s the one you try to trace through the store, only to maybe find out that’s not him, and we’re back to ground zero again, starting to look again. That’s what led to the extended time.”

Police issued a tweet at 9:06 p.m. that said detectives were still trying to identify suspects by reviewing video footage and interviewing witnesses. An hour later, the department reported that no one was in custody.

At 11 p.m., police held a news conference and released a picture of Ostrem and his red Mitsubishi Mirage. They tweeted that information at 11:22 p.m.

The original Thornton police tweet warned people to avoid the area. But that didn’t stop worried families of Walmart employees and shoppers from gathering at the scene. Curious onlookers also drove by, and some stopped to watch.

“The danger is inherent in what is going on,” he said. “It’s not necessarily something that needs to be hammered home. The problem whenever we have lights and sirens is everyone comes out. No amount of communication could change that.”

The Thornton Police Department will review its response to the shooting, and its public communication will be included in the review, Avila said.

The presence of armed civilians at a crime scene can potentially be either a help or a hindrance to police, said Joseph Pollini, professor and deputy chair of the Law and Police Science Department at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.

“It can work both ways,” said Pollini, who also worked 30 years as a New York City cop. “In one, you have law-abiding citizens present at the scene of a shooting that could terminate it, assist in apprehending the individual. But generally as a rule, you turn to the police for that aspect. It’s not common for civilians to do the job of police, and the fact that they carry firearms can very much complicate things.”

Some customers wondered why their fellow shoppers who were armed didn’t confront the shooter.

http://www.denverpost.com/2017...ns-walmart-shooting/

Darlene Jackson, a truck driver, said she was in the toy section of the store when she heard the gunshots. She later heard that people other than the shooter had guns, but they did not confront the killer.

“Why wouldn’t they draw their guns and shoot him?” she said.

Boy they really are grasping for straws aren’t they?

Watch this and then tell me why we need to just trust the police to save us.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=..._hETy0&feature=share

Saw this yesterday - it occurred about an hour south of where we live.

Sounds like the CCW folks were playing defense and were ready to protect themselves, rather than play cop and go after the shooter, which is appropriate.

The takeaway here is to carry and be armed, even at Walmart! There's been a Walmart shooting and it's not even Christmas shopping season yet!

Any word on this guy's motive?

Oh please.

And what if this d-bag intended to not just shoot and run? Those firearms in the hands of citizens would've saved lives no doubt.

Good on those armed customers for taking defensive precautions. So it annoyed the cops. Tough – they'll just have to suck it up.

Re: “Why wouldn’t they draw their guns and shoot him?” she said.

Maybe you ought to buy a gun for your own defense, lady.

If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.

The stupid is strong at the Denver Post.

We have a public example of multiple CCW weapons on scene --- yet only the Criminal shot anyone.

The anit-gun fantasy of a Wild West shootout never happened.

Yet they will contort themselves in every imaginable way to avoid recognizing it.

I'm sorry, but how many people could have pulled guns to cause a 5 hour delay? I don't buy it at all..

All they had to do was follow the camera footage from the bodies.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
I'm sorry, but how many people could have pulled guns to cause a 5 hour delay? I don't buy it at all...

Yeah, it's complete, 100% grade A bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Yanert98:
The stupid is strong at the Denver Post.

We have a public example of multiple CCW weapons on scene --- yet only the Criminal shot anyone.

The anit-gun fantasy of a Wild West shootout never happened.

Yet they will contort themselves in every imaginable way to avoid recognizing it.

Just another day at MSM. Kinda like the news conference yesterday (regarding the ISIS wannabe hitting people with the Home Depot truck) with Cuomo and de Blasio, where they tried desperately to bring gun control into the story. The liberal narratives are always the primary drivers with these people, the actual story is merely the delivery vehicle for the message.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sigmanic,

Such nonsense.

That's a decent suburban neighborhood, too, Thornton...

quote:

Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
Good on those armed customers for taking defensive precautions. So it annoyed the cops. Tough – they'll just have to suck it up.

Re: “Why wouldn’t they draw their guns and shoot him?” she said.

Maybe you ought to buy a gun for your own defense, lady.

I didn't read anywhere here that this annoyed the cops. It's a poorly written article pushing the usual leftist antigun agenda. The bolded text was a professor and deputy chair of the Law and Police Science Department at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York and not a cop.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
I'm sorry, but how many people could have pulled guns to cause a 5 hour delay? I don't buy it at all...

Yeah, it's complete, 100% grade A bull.

Now if it happened at a Wal-Mart in Texas...

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmanic:

The takeaway here is to carry and be armed, even at Walmart!

Correction. Especially at Walmart!

Am I expected to believe that the Denver PD investigators are so incompetent that they cannot determine from video, which person started the shooting, and which people are reacting to to gun shots and drawing weapons defensively?

Really, can't tell the difference? Not a clue?

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
Am I expected to believe that the Denver PD investigators are so incompetent that they cannot determine from video, which person started the shooting, and which people are reacting to to gun shots and drawing weapons defensively?

Really, can't tell the difference? Not a clue?

Yeah no kidding. If I were the Denver PD, I wouldn't be happy with that article as it makes them look incompetent.

That could get scary in a hurry if two CCW carriers both drew weapons and were moving to a safe location and ran into each other.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.

I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmanic:

The takeaway here is to carry and be armed, even at Walmart!

Correction. Especially at Walmart!

Yes - good point!