quote:

Denver police have forgotten about people in their custody overnight three times this year.

one woman, in custody for an unpaid traffic ticket, sat in a sparse police department holding cell for nearly 13 hours. Handcuffed to a bench, Victoria Ugalde could not reach the toilet for much of the time and had no option but to urinate on the floor.
The desk officer who was supposed to check on Ugalde admitted he failed to notice she was there because he was wrapped up in reading a book, titled "Emotional Intelligence 2.0."

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Originally posted by 12131:
A liberal garbage newspaper attempting to paint law abiding gun owners in a bad light? Gee, I'm so shocked.

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Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
A very excellent post, Aeteocles.

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Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:

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Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
A very excellent post, Aeteocles.

yeah 100% on his post.

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Originally posted by Poacher:
That could get scary in a hurry if two CCW carriers both drew weapons and were moving to a safe location and ran into each other.

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Originally posted by trapper189:

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Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

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Originally posted by Ackks:
I'm sorry, but how many people could have pulled guns to cause a 5 hour delay? I don't buy it at all...

Yeah, it's complete, 100% grade A bull.

Now if it happened at a Wal-Mart in Texas...

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Originally posted by radioman:

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Originally posted by Poacher:
That could get scary in a hurry if two CCW carriers both drew weapons and were moving to a safe location and ran into each other.

One could make up scenarios that didn't happen all day long.

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Originally posted by Poacher:

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Originally posted by radioman:

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Originally posted by Poacher:
That could get scary in a hurry if two CCW carriers both drew weapons and were moving to a safe location and ran into each other.

One could make up scenarios that didn't happen all day long.

Simple food for thought, since people did pull guns.

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Originally posted by Aeteocles:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.

I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.

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Originally posted by Aeteocles:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.

I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.

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Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If I heard shooting in such a venue: Step 1: Locate wife. Step 2: Retreat to defensible position and draw. Step 3: Wait for uniforms to show.

I was taught to not draw.

1. Don't want to be mistaken for the bad guy. Weapon in hand makes you an immediate threat to all first responders, and no amount of screaming, "It's not me, bro!" is going to convince them otherwise. You have a gun in hand, you are suddenly a priority and you'll end up on the ground with cuffs at some point. More importantly, you are distracting resources from the real threat.

2. Drawing your weapon, with no immediate intent to start shooting, puts you at a tactical disadvantage. There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target There is no way to be sure that you've identified all the bad guys, so drawing your weapon makes you a target. This happened at another Walmart shooting in Vegas where a CCW holder drew his weapon on a bad guy, and then an accomplice came up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/art...r-victim-5545824.php

3). Keeping your weapon hidden gives you the element of surprise and flexibility to respond to situations as it changes. If you have your gun out, and bad guy sees you, you are basically forced to exchange fire for good or bad. If your gun is hidden, you can time your attack to make optimal effect. If it becomes a hostage situation, you might be able to stash your weapon or keep it hidden until the time is right.


Your strategy should be 1) Locate wife. 2) Retreat to safety, or if safety not available, to a defensible position. 3) Prepare to draw, but keep your gun hidden.

I understand, but disagree. First, to the bolder section above, the shooter came in and killed people randomly. You are no more or less a target in this situation with or without a weapon. He is killing at random. Ergo, I’d argue prudence dictates preparation for immediate contact.

Secondly, I think this kind of nuanced action planning fails to adequently account for the human aspect of processing adrenaline. KISS is the appropriate acronym for most people in most situations. Your idea of staying cool and composed, playing it tactically smart while also positioned strategically for a hostage standoff, etc. reads well and sounds doable but is totally impossible for most people. Including me. I know my limits. In an instance where an assailant is walking through Walmart shooting at random, I think the safest play most CCW could execute is exactly what ensigmatic outlined. Are there disadvantages to drawing? Yes, but they are outweighed by advantages.

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You shouldn't have your gun drawn for extended periods of time. You aren't Jack Bauer. You aren't going to help the Police clear and make safe the area. You aren't going to be cover an exit or an entrance. You aren't going to be issuing verbal commands to the bad guy over a drawn weapon. You aren't going to be issuing commands to bystanders over a drawn weapon.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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You shouldn't have your gun drawn for extended periods of time. You aren't Jack Bauer. You aren't going to help the Police clear and make safe the area. You aren't going to be cover an exit or an entrance. You aren't going to be issuing verbal commands to the bad guy over a drawn weapon. You aren't going to be issuing commands to bystanders over a drawn weapon.

I'm not so sure. You're inside that store without an officer in sight. When the police do arrive, they set up in the parking lot and spend some time trying to figure out what they are going to do.

You're on your own. If you and your family decide that you're making your way to the nearest exit, you may very well be covering them. If you encounter a bad guy along the way, you may very well yell "orders" at them. If you're with a group other than your family you may very well be giving them orders over a drawn weapon.

I have pulled my weapon once and didn't shoot. I have also been in a life or death situation, unarmed, against an armed lunatic. Real life and theory often differ when you find yourself in that situation.