Recently got into an argument with a liberal pal who bought a Shockwave and a box of birdshot. I recommended buck due to the non lethality of birshot at distance from a short barrel especially amongst perps on drugs. Can anyone provide links to shooting data or videos where shot perps kept fighting?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rev. A. J. Forsyth,

If quail or ducks are breaking into your house, use birdshot, for any larger animal, 00 is your battle buddy, and if you have very good shot placement, then slugs are better.

Seriously. If it is "arguing time", make the statement and move on.

https://www.activeresponsetrai...hot-for-self-defense

Depends on which birdshot. #1 would be much more effective than #8.

IRT buck, I use #1. Size difference between #1 and 00 is negligible but you get a few more pellets with #1.

I have a 20 ga with #3 buckshot. Wife handles it better. The Shockwave is easier to shoot than you would imagine.

That is a great article Sigmonkey. Thanks

I once worked a case where thug #2 was shot by thug #1 at less than one foot with a 12 sawed off shotgun. Thug #1 used #7 1/2 birdshot. Initially thug #2 put his left hand up to ward off the shot. The gun wound up being pointed at the armpit and the shot column travelled from the left armpit to the right hip. I know it was 7 1/2 because the empty case was recovered.

Thug #2s X-ray looked like the night sky in the desert. There was a pellet in every square inch inside his thorax and abdomen.

Thug #2 declined to prosecute/testify, I guess he got the message.

He walked out of the Er the next morning.

Birdshot is for birds.

Buckshot is for animals.

And remember most deer are about the size of humans.

I once read an artl in a gun mag advocating #4 shot for distances up to 2o-25 feet inside house.Some testing was done. Claim was that #4 shot was large enough to stop bad guy but wouldn’t penetrate walls with great force making it safer for family members.

Larger number of pellets presented more surface area provided more shock and larger wound area was principle advocated. Some tests on duct seal or gelatin as well as dry wall penetration were documented as I recall.

Group expansion at that distance wasn’t that great, maybe 6-8 inches.

The story stuck in my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by maxdog:
I once read an artl in a gun mag advocating #4 shot for distances up to 2o-25 feet inside house.Some testing was done. Claim was that #4 shot was large enough to stop bad guy but wouldn’t penetrate walls with great force making it safer for family members.

Larger number of pellets presented more surface area provided more shock and larger wound area was principle advocated. Some tests on duct seal or gelatin as well as dry wall penetration were documented as I recall.

Group expansion at that distance wasn’t that great, maybe 6-8 inches.

The story stuck in my mind.

They were likely referencing #4 buckshot. That is generally sufficient for self defense.

#4 buck consists of 21 or so .24 caliber pellets, compared to 8 or so .33 caliber pellets in 00 buck. So slightly smaller pellets, but still large enough for 12+ inches of recommended penetration into a bad guy, and with a greater number of pellets than 00 buck.

But #4 birdshot would not be an adequate home defense load.

The OP is referring to birdshot, which while it could be better than harsh words and a stick if you literally have no other option, is a poor choice for a deliberate self defense plan no matter the type of birdshot. No normal birdshot will penetrate sufficiently to ensure stopping the threat, and will only serve to create a messy but shallow surface wound. And if it comes down to employing deadly force with a shotgun because you or someone else is in imminent danger of death or serious injury, you want to stop the threat as quickly as possible, not just "try to scare them off with a bit of pain and a loud noise" with birdshot.

At the risk of painting with a rather large brush, it sounds like the OP's pal likely falls into the category of the "reluctant gun owner" who decides they want to own a gun (any gun) for peace of mind, basically viewing it as a magical talisman to ward off evil. But they don't really plan to ever employ it, and it they do have to employ it, they plan to just "wound them" or "shoot them in the leg" or "fire off a warning blast in the air from the balcony" because they haven't committed to properly defending themselves if necessary. He'll probably take it home and keep it unloaded in the closet, with the dusty box of birdshot shells next to it, and sleep better at night knowing that he now owns a gun and is now "safe", despite not knowing how to utilize it effectively, not training with it, and not having effective ammo.

Per the late Jeff Cooper: "Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
If quail or ducks are breaking into your house, use birdshot, for any larger animal, 00 is your battle buddy, and if you have very good shot placement, then slugs are better.

Seriously. If it is "arguing time", make the statement and move on.

https://www.activeresponsetrai...hot-for-self-defense

Birdshot is great for sporting clays, but its a mix of slugs and OO buck in, and on, the semiauto HD shotgun.

Birdshot might get the job cone at 10 feet or less, but not ideal. We did a ton of research and testing on the subject in LE 40 years ago and settled on #4 buckshot. Twice I have seen an aggressor who was shot with #4 buck and it was lights out. OO will certainly get the job done but #4 gives you three times more likelihood of getting a lethal hit. I currently teach a state mandated defensive shotgun course for licensing for security officers/armored car guards/body guards. They are required to qualify with and carry 00 buck and I see some flyers missing the target at 15 yards. I see flyers with #4 buck also but there are a lot more holes in the target at the end of the day. Current training literature suggest #4 buck is effective (all pellets on a man sized silhouette) at 15 yards and 00 buck at 25 yards, although both will certainly reach out far beyond that. We noticed a marked improvement in patterning with 00 buck when we started using Federal Tactical reduced recoil Flite Control. The pattern stays together better at longer ranges and reduced recoil is what you want in those stubby little shotguns. Federal makes a personal defense round in #4 buck but I have not seen a flite control round with #4 buck. Hope this helps

I shot a deer broadside at close range with 12 ga #1 buck because a fellow deer hunter told me it was better than 00, and though it worked, it wasn't as fast a kill as similar shots I'd made with 00. Anyone who hunts deer with 00 and birds with birshot inherently knows the stupdity of defending one's life with birdshot. It's ridiculous on its face. Anyone who promotes birdshot for justifiable lethal defense has not, I guarantee you, ever hunted birds or large game of any kind whatsoever. Very similar to politicians talking and making policy about things they have no realistic knowlege of.

#1 Buck is the home / self defense preference here! Birdshot is for birds damnit!

Federal Tactical reduced recoil OOB is my choice for the shotgun.

Hornandy TAP Reduced recoil 00Buck is what my HD 870P is loaded with.

Birdshot is too variable depending on clothing, and distance, 00Buck is has wider parameters to be effective.

I was taught to believe that if you have to shoot someone shoot to kill..

https://www.brennekeusa.com/hu...black-magicr-magnum/

If the idiot is dumb enough to think bird shot is what he should use... then I'd let him.....

https://youtu.be/3haq5BFh7qs
Lucky Gunner re:buckshot

https://youtu.be/Jf4i8gRTsJs
Lucky Gunner re:buckshot part deux

My opinion is to save your breath with folks like that.

Here is some data from the Box 'O Truth:

https://www.theboxotruth.com/t...ets-the-box-o-truth/

This is what the idiot being shot would look like. If I remember correctly, the guy was less than 10 feet from the muzzle of the shotgun and it was 7 1/2 shot.

If you are in a situation where all you had was bird shot, aim for face/head. Incapacitate by blinding the attacker and the psychological effect of a face full of a shotgun blast may present itself, causing pain and distress to psych stop him if not blinded.

But...

Stick to minimum of #1 Buckshot or larger in 16 or 12 gauge or better yet, slugs.

20ga is absolutely good to use with slugs and buck, and some companies load larger than #3 Buck.