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You made a very valid point. Either he will listen to you or he won't. I wouldn't waste any time arguing with a liberal like that. -- he might have to learn his lesson the hard way. (I have seen / read that #4 birdshot 'MIGHT' be acceptable at very close range -- like across the room. No way I would go any smaller that that -- certainly not 7,8,9...) But I would not recommend that to anyone unless there was no other choice. It's physics... IMO #4 Buck or #1 Buck are pretty much ideal for HD. Years ago I knew a general surgeon who did a trauma fellowship in New Orleans. Saw a ton of GSWs and was a hunter so he knew a lot about guns / ballistics / bullets, etc. His opinion was a shotgun w/ #4 Buck was the most devastating / effective choice bar none. take that FWIW. ------------------------------------------- Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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Best evaluation I ever read was one done in a shoot-house. They sent skilled LE in loaded with varying buckshot loads/brands to engage multiple targets. 01 Buck (typically 12 pellet) offered the most hits in fight stopping zones on the target with every participant. That settled it for me. Numbers don't lie. 000-04 buck is going to work when it comes to terminal ballistics. Truly, arguing about which one is selected is largely a non-starter. Birdshot is not a good choice, although I have and would use down to #4 high brass (turkey shot) and think I'm going to be just fine at in home distances (under 35'). I've been buying some #2 steel shot high brass (1550 fps) that I am certain will get the job done. Currently, I have 00 reduced recoil loads (about 1250 fps) loaded in the shorty on the rack. Everything in the bandolier is full power 00 and slugs. But then again, I've got more buckshot than the first three departments/agencies that show up. Buy a few boxes of buckshot and give them to him. Say "Here" when you hand them to him. You'll feel better and there's a good chance he'll pull his head from his backside. As a final observation, manufacturers are not consistent with pellet numbers. The same "00 buck" can have 9, 12, 16 or 20 pellets. Remington drives me crazy like that. | |||
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I have always wondered how some of the larger non toxic steel goose loads ( such as T or TT) would work in a defensive situation | |||
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That's a hell of a wide pattern for being shot from "less than ten feet"!!!!  Even a "Spreader" choke for shooting skeet couldn't open a pattern up like that!!!"I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken." | |||
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I'm sure they would be quite the attention getters.  When all this excitement dies down, I'm going to start acquiring some BB loads. I settled for the 02 shot because A) It was available, and B) It was $10.50 a box of 25. I do everything in 2-3/4". I've found 3" shells to be overkill for my purposes. | |||
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That is incorrect. All those different pellet counts, and velocities, are standardized among the different manufacturers. Each of those loadings is fairly standardized, with more or less specific purposes in mind. So Winchester, and Federal, all have those various pellet counts at very similar if not identical velocities. SAMI specs all the way for all of them. Lover of the US Constitution Wile E. Coyote School of DIY Disaster | |||
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Lover of the US Constitution Wile E. Coyote School of DIY Disaster | |||
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^^^^ This looks like a double tap to me. End of Earth: 2 Miles Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles | |||
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The people who know
Fight uphill against that until you get tired. What I said:
I admit I didn't state that well. What I meant to say was that the same 00 Buck designation can have varying pellet counts. And the same goes for 01 Buck. And I meant 16 pellet, not 12. Regardless, what you went 6 degrees off center on:
That might actually be an answer - but since you went off into oblivion about nothing I actually said - it's not. No one asked that question or made a statement even remotely approaching it. I'm not incorrect. And you are talking about something else entirely. The point I'm making isn't industry dram, load weight or any of the nonsense you eschewed. I mentioned pellet count. I said nothing about performance or industry standards. I'm talking about having, for example, "01" Buck with different pellet counts. For example, I have two "01" Buck loads. SP12 16 pellet 3-3/4 Dram equivalent SP12S 20 pellet 4 dram equivalent Now, if you try to tell me the terminal performance is the same on those two rounds, I'll have some bad news for you. They don't make the 20 pellet loading anymore, but I have plenty of it - and the 16 pellet. And I use the 16 pellet. But when I ordered a bunch years ago, I received 20 pellet. And yes, it drives me crazy that the same manufacturer sold 01 buck in two different configurations. They don't anymore - but that doesn't change my statement being correct as a real life observation. You essentially did the same thing in the 10mm thread awhile back. Replying to what you were thinking, not what was actually said. No one said full powered loads I appreciate the response, but had you actually addressed what was stated - and not what you thought was stated, it might have had some relevance. | |||
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