quote:

Originally posted by spunk639:
I’ve been a cop and now I’m a lawyer, that’s not developing PC. That’s a state actor and Feds pushing the envelope, if you know he went to Philly, allegedly sold guns straw, watch him, follow him, get the PC and get a search or arrest warrant. Otherwise they’re looking for an easy, weak collar. Everybody has their own way to do things so I’ll agree to disagree with you.

So in all your time as a cop you never spoke to a suspect prior to establishing probable cause??

Also then you are well aware of the bureaucracy in a lot of this especially with the feds investigations. Based upon the level of the investigation there are very strict timelines on how long an investigation can continue and very specific rules in regard to what sort of investigation tools one can use.
On the state level if I am investigating a crime at any level I can use any LEGAL investigatory tool a see fit during the investigation.
Not so for the feds, certain investigation levels and criteria must be met before they can do trash pulls, physical surveillance, social media monitoring, video/audio surveillance, or even apply for court orders, warrants, etc.

It very well could have been a low level investigation and the deadline was coming up to close the case so they said screw it let’s just ask him.

Of course I am speculating here but I highly doubt they took a multiple purchase notification and just went and talked to the guy. Which is what the article wants you think think.

I do believe there is more to the story. However if I am wrong and they just grabbed a multiple purchase notification then went and asked well than yes that is a complete and utter waste of time and resources.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

But that does not mean there aren’t times or reason to just go up and have a consensual conversation with the suspect. Which is exactly what happened here and the fella complied.

Simply not having probable cause does not mean you don’t talk to a suspect to close out a case.

LOL, a consensual conversation, yeah that's what is happening here.

The PO PO can legally lie to you but you cannot to them - perfectly fair.

It was completely consensual the fella could have simply said have a nice day and gone back in the house.
While you can’t lie to the feds you can certainly lie to local and state police all day long in most jurisdictions.
Here the only time you can’t lie is about your name and address when you are legally required to provide officers with that information.
Which is only required when you are operating a motor vehicle on a public roadway. Outside of that one is required to give the police any information at all. Outside of that you can say anything you want as fabricated as you want or nothing at all and there is zero recourse.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
DONT. TALK. TO. COPS!!!
EVER!!!

If I broke no laws then I'm wasting my time helping a government worker for free and at the risk of them deciding to find something to accuse me of.

If I did break some law then I'm most certainly not talking.

There certainly times to talk to the police and certainly times not too.
In this instance if I were he. I simply would have said I am not going to introduce/produce my legally owned property to you. I am going back inside and have a nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
why not go after real criminals?

For example, that "My arm's shot off" guy and his crew could easily face fed charges if they have any type of record. Yet the feds don't ever seem to go after them.

There are countless examples of felons caught with guns, and nothing happens. What's the reason? In most cases the local/county has already done the dirty work, and often has them in jail already, it's just a matter of pressing federal charges.

How do you know they aren’t in this case?

Spoke with plenty of people in a casual conversation, all day all the time.

But showing up at somebody’s door, with two Feds, with tac vests, and info that the person is straw purchasing guns, and info was given he went to Philly, obviously somebody was doing surveillance. I’d probably not do a consensual search with 3 officers at a home. Show force, subject acquiesced to presence. Wouldn’t want to tip off a gun runner we’re watching.

Talked to lots of people on calls, developed PC by conversation and observations, but this again agree to disagree. Constitution applies to local cops, Feds don’t have to obey the rules, don’t need pesky things right now like warrants and PC, especially for guns.

Federal investigation why is the trooper there? Get a look for a state crime maybe. Feds should do their own dirty work.

I’m all for “helping the cops” in the legitimate exercise of their authority and power.

Not so much if they are in the process of trying to violate my rights on a fishing expedition at the cost of my privacy.

And no, I am not coming out with guns in hand to have them inspected. You have paperwork saying I bought the guns. You have serial numbers (so much for no registry).

Tell you what, just assume I still have them until there is a record someone else has bought them, I report them stolen, or they turn up at a crime scene.

Good day, please vacate my property and don’t return unless you have the appropriate warrant.

quote:

Originally posted by spunk639:
Spoke with plenty of people in a casual conversation, all day all the time.

But showing up at somebody’s door, with two Feds, with tac vests, and info that the person is straw purchasing guns, and info was given he went to Philly, obviously somebody was doing surveillance. I’d probably not do a consensual search with 3 officers at a home. Show force, subject acquiesced to presence. Wouldn’t want to tip off a gun runner we’re watching.

Talked to lots of people on calls, developed PC by conversation and observations, but this again agree to disagree. Constitution applies to local cops, Feds don’t have to obey the rules, don’t need pesky things right now like warrants and PC, especially for guns.

Federal investigation why is the trooper there? Get a look for a state crime maybe. Feds should do their own dirty work.

There are too many unanswered question to really know what has already gone on and why. My point is the article wants you to believe that they are just going door to door asking to see guns.
If you actually pay attention to the video you will realize quickly that is not what is going on in this case.

The ATF in Delaware office could have gotten a call from Philly because they got out with the dude for some reason then looked LPRs to see this dude is traveling to hot spots in Philly and maybe popped a dude seen with this guy or had a gun that came back from a trace. A million different reasons why the ATF is following up and as I stated earlier based upon layers and layers of federal hurdles to investigations is why they went about it this way.

It is very possible the trooper is a task force officer assigned to the ATF.

Again, I’ll agree 100% this is complete nonsense if all they have is a multiple sale form but I am pretty sure that is not the case.
There are certainly plenty of times to get all worked up about police tactics but I don’t think this is one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
I’m all for “helping the cops” in the legitimate exercise of their authority and power.

Not so much if they are in the process of trying to violate my rights on a fishing expedition at the cost of my privacy.

And no, I am not coming out with guns in hand to have them inspected. You have paperwork saying I bought the guns. You have serial numbers (so much for no registry).

Tell you what, just assume I still have them until there is a record someone else has bought them, I report them stolen, or they turn up at a crime scene.

Good day, please vacate my property and don’t return unless you have the appropriate warrant.

What rights are being violated in THIS video???

Couldn't the whole Philly thing just be he was pulled over for speeding and the officer ran his firearm through NCIC to make sure it wasn't stolen?

Yeahhhhh

I used to get those things by the dozen when I worked gangs.

I wasn’t taking the time to even glance at them unless I already KNEW there was something else going on with the names.

I had entirely too much shit to do. I’m sure these guys were investigating something else.

That said,

Come back with a warrant.

quote:

Originally posted by Skull Leader:
Couldn't the whole Philly thing just be he was pulled over for speeding and the officer ran his firearm through NCIC to make sure it wasn't stolen?

I doubt something that simple would trigger anything to bring in a Delaware response. How many thousands if not tens of thousands of NCIC hits happen a day.
Also simple traffic stops where a legal gun owner is encountered with a firearm rarely comes to the point of running the firearm through NCIC.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:
Yeahhhhh

I used to get those things by the dozen when I worked gangs.

I wasn’t taking the time to even glance at them unless I already KNEW there was something else going on with the names.

I had entirely too much shit to do. I’m sure these guys were investigating something else.

That said,

Come back with a warrant.

Exactly my point.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

What rights are being violated in THIS video???

I think I said “trying to violate my rights.”

Call me old fashioned, but I consider attempting to get “consent” via coercion and double talk as unethical and an effort to skirt the 4th Amendment.

Some may willingly give up there rights and consent buying the BS they are told. As others have pointed out cops lying to citizens is a legal and time honored tactic to solicit information while at the same time citizens lying to cops is a criminal offense.

Not a fan of double standards, especially when I am holding the stinky end of the stick.

I guess it is a good thing I buy expensive guns and can only afford to buy one at a time.

That is complete BS!

Maybe the IRS will use their additional funding to send agents to middle class homes and use similar approaches to ask about how you filled out tax forms. Answer incorrectly and you've lied to a federal agent.

Get the damn warrant, if you can, then go at it. Otherwise, have a nice day. The way these jerks did here is completely unacceptable and reeked with intimidation.