quote:

socialism encourages sloth, promotes waste, and empowers a self-serving government.

The government seems well upon that path - rife with examples - with or without Socialism.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
For decades, about 80% of working-age people IIRC had their health insurance paid by their employer, or spouse's employer. This had its problems, but it was a stable system that served the great majority of people pretty well, particularly as employers became more cost-conscious rather than just paying the full bill through indemnity insurance.

ACA ruined that. Supposedly just planning to provide coverage to the uninsured, it made it so that employers dumped coverage for dependents; laid people off or cut them back to below the hourly level where they would be required to buy insurance; because now ACA would provide.

Medicaid was greatly expanded, at least in theory; but the majority of physicians will not accept new Medicaid patients so although insured, access to care did not improve correspondingly.

Now most of us would likely prefer that we return to something like the status quo ante, but that was already unsustainable due to increasing public costs of Medicare and Medicaid. Also, GOP officeholders did not run on "repeal", they ran on "repeal and replace", indicating they wanted to put in place a better system, market-oriented, less costly, less intrusive. Those of us who are conservatives and who have worked in the health policy area (see my post on Avik Roy above) would be delighted to see something like the Senate bill, hopefully nudged in a more free-market direction as per Cruz, Paul, and Lee.

Politics is the art of the possible.

Not only that but in those decades, the coverages slowly crept to ever more and more inclusive.

You were covered for significant medical events, not for every interaction with a medical person.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
Also, GOP officeholders did not run on "repeal", they ran on "repeal and replace", indicating they wanted to put in place a better system, market-oriented, less costly, less intrusive.

Totally wrong. They might have casually kicked around ideas about solutions, but that wasn't in campaign fliers. Repubs campaigned prior to the 2014 elections on 'repealing' BarryCare. Many of them won their elections in no small part due to that pledge, giving the GOP a larger majority in the House and control of the Senate. Then we heard for two more years that with Barry in the White House, repeal was not possible, but if voters would given them the White House in 2016, it would get done. And don't forget, over the eight year debacle that was the Obama administration, the House passed seven repeal bills, not one mentioning anything about a 'replacement'. And 2016 and beyond was to be no different. After all, smart money said Hillary was going to win the White House meaning Repubs could sit back and demonize her for four years knowing they could always use the presidential veto once again as an excuse for doing nothing with BarryCare. Then of course, 'The Donald' happened and all of a sudden the spineless, status quo, RINO garbage found themselves with few excuses, and a president who wanted a repeal. Now what do they do? The current bill is their attempt to split the baby, while trying to do as little as possible, and upset as few potential voting constituencies and campaign donors. It is also a shining example how to rip defeat from the clutches of victory.

BarryCare is akin to a virus that's eating and killing the host, and the GOP is recommending we slow its spread rather than eradicating it all together. Somehow I do not think that's what most of us went to the polls and voted for last November.

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

socialism encourages sloth, promotes waste, and empowers a self-serving government.

The government seems well upon that path - rife with examples - with or without Socialism.

But the vehicle of socialism provides a goodly dose of incentive and tools to get there faster.

quote:

Donald Trump and Mike Pence marked the start of ObamaCare open enrollment Tuesday by railing against the program's rising consumer costs and pledging to make repealing and replacing President Obama's signature health care law a first order of business if elected.

Trump, speaking in Valley Forge in the battleground state of Pennsylvania, called the Affordable Care Act a “catastrophe” that needed to be replaced immediately.

"I will ask Congress to convene a special session so we can repeal and replace," Trump vowed.

Link

You are both right.
DJT has called for both a full repeal (it was even on his website throughout the campaign)... and has said "repeal and replace" over and over again since.

He has also said “insurance for everybody", and "everyone will be covered" and the "government will pay for it".... which he also said he knew was "very un-Republican".



He has been all across the spectrum on this issue with the exception of the free market based reforms advocated by the Freedom Caucus. I think he supports the Senate bill because he wants to "get it done" and get it off his plate.

From Donald Trump two days ago

"Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump

I am very supportive of the Senate #HealthcareBill. Look forward to making it really special! Remember, ObamaCare is dead.

6:40 PM - 22 Jun 2017

There you have it. Donald Trump is totally on board with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan. He has done what a good politician does - he makes friends with the power brokers so he can get things done. Trump understands that McConnell and Ryan represent the people he can do business with. Not Ted Cruz or Rand Paul. Those are outsiders who are not connected. Trump knows what he is doing.... and he will help "fix" the health care system and help bring Medicaid to all Americans.

Eesh. Back to this again?

President Trump wants to do SOMETHING to see that Americans get medical care if they need it. That's his ideology. That's his ONE goal.

"I want people taken care of. I have a heart," Trump said. "If somebody has no money and they're lying in the middle of the street and they're dying, I'm going to take care of that person."

Trump said he'll achieve his goal by working with hospitals and doctors.

"We've got to do something," he said. "You can't have a small percentage of our economy, because they're down and out, have absolutely no protection so they end up dying from, you know, what you could have a simple procedure or even a pill. You can't do that. We'll work something out."

"And if this means I lose an election, that’s fine, because, frankly, we have to take care of the people in our country. We can’t let them die on the sidewalks of New York or the sidewalks of Iowa or anywhere else."

LINK

Yep, both bigdeal and sjtill are right.
So are you.

I support DJT because he is not Hillary, but that doesn't mean I fully support his position(s) on every issue.

That program is a sinking ship and the GOP wants to throw a few temporary patches on it and jump aboard. It's still going to sink except when it does they'll have sole possession of it. They need to scuttle that thing and get a brand new boat. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:
That program is a sinking ship and the GOP wants to throw a few temporary patches on it and jump aboard. It's still going to sink except when it does they'll have sole possession of it. They need to scuttle that thing and get a brand new boat. Period.

Agreed. The only thing that sucks is if we let it sink people are screwed in meantime and insurance companies may go out of business. Everyone hates ins cos but we don't want any businesses failing it's counterproductive.

I just wish we could go back to the way it was, then add a tax to cover only the uninsurable and only for claims in excess of $10,000. The poor would always have care. We are subsidizing rich older folks, and others that don't' even need charity.

I hope the republicans get on board and pass this legislation ASAP. It's time to fix this and move on. There is zero appetite for a stupid 'one sentence repeal' that would wreak absolute havoc on the market. It's not going to happen - now or ever. Whoever signed on to such nonsense could kiss their electoral prospects goodbye for several generations.

From Scalia's dissent in the Obamacare (Sebelius) case:

quote:

It creates a debilitated, inoperable version of health-care regulation that Congress did not enact and the public does not expect. It makes enactment of sensible health-care regulation more difficult, since Congress cannot start afresh but must take as its point of departure a jumble of now senseless provisions, provisions that certain interests favored under the Court’s new design will struggle to retain.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/su...ing-11-393_DISSENT_5

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
Yep, both bigdeal and sjtill are right.
So are you.

I support DJT because he is not Hillary, but that doesn't mean I fully support his position(s) on every issue.

And yet, my big gripe is once again 'not' with president Trump, but rather, with a GOP who appears only slightly less our enemy (and his) than the Dem party. These bastards excoriated Barry the Wonder Putz for his "You can keep your doctor and plan" lie. Now they're telling us we really didn't see all their campaign flyers, commercials, or videos, promising a 'repeal' of AbominationCare. We're simply confused or mistaken as its always been about 'repeal and replace'. My point is, no it has not been.

Anything short of a clean, complete, repeal bill on this utter failure is a lie and slap in the face of the Americans who gave this scum the levers of power in the last election with a specific mandate.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
I hope the republicans get on board and pass this legislation ASAP. It's time to fix this and move on.

Ya got any money you wanna bet on where this goes? I read a piece on Friday (still looking for the link to post) that speculated the GOP has no really appetite whatsoever to tackle this repeal, and the dissenting GOP senators will give McConnell the ammo he needs to simply shrug his shoulders, and then bury this issue at the bottom of the Repub agenda with the excuse they can't get it done and there are too many other just as important issues (i.e. tax reform) that need to be addressed. That's the bet I'd put on the table given it caters specifically to the inherent cowardice of the GOP.

So, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has done precisely what everyone expected: he has unveiled a watered-down version of the already weak House Republican Trumpcare bill. The bill is actually so weak that even Obamacare architect Jonathan Gruber is chortling that it doesn’t actually repeal Obamacare.

That’s because it doesn’t.

That doesn’t mean that every provision is bad. It does mean that the bill does little or nothing to lower premiums, undermines the solvency of insurance companies, and makes changes to Medicaid so far down the road that they may never materialize.

But the bill does do three crucial things that Republicans want: it restructures an entitlement, which is Speaker of the House Paul Ryan’s raison d’etre; it provides the necessary government cutbacks to allow the Congressional Budget Office to score savings which will then be applied to tax reform; and it allows Republicans to brag emptily about having “repealed” Obamacare. In the short term, all of that may provide a bit of salve for a largely-useless Congressional term. But in the mid to long-term, it’s actually disastrous: by preserving Obamacare’s key provisions and calling it a “free market reform,” when premiums go up and insurance companies go out of business, Republicans and the free market will take ownership. The next step will be a swing into Bernie Sanders’ Medicaid-for-all column from voters.

Here’s what you need to know.

1. The Bill Retains Obamacare’s Core Regulatory Scheme. Insurance companies will still be mandated to cover pre-existing conditions. The minute you force insurance companies to do this, they begin hemorrhaging money, since people will simply wait until they get sick to get insurance. The Obamacare scheme offers subsidies to insurance companies, raises taxes, and mandates purchase for the general public. As we’ll see, the Republican bill leans heavily on subsidies and does away with mandates and taxes, which carves a hole into the already-creaky hull of Obamacare. States would be allowed to alter the basic benefit package required within the states and the minimum contributions from insurance companies — but the result will likely be less comprehensive services, higher costs, or both. As Daniel Horowitz of Conservative Review puts it, "The bill merely loosens existing waiver authority up to the discretion of HHS for a few regulations, a provision that will not be strong enough to signal flexibility to insurers enough to reduce premiums."

2. The Bill Re-Enshrines Subsidies to Insurance Companies. As Peter Suderman of Reason magazine states, the Republicans originally opposed Obamacare subsidies for insurance companies. They even sued to stop them. The new bill not only re-enshrines those payments, it allows back payments of such subsidies. This means:

[T]hey are proposing to explicitly authorize and continue the very policy their House colleagues took the previous administration to court for pursuing. It amounts to an expansion of Obamacare, and while it may reduce uncertainty in some markets, it is unlikely to halt premium increases or fully stabilize the exchanges, which were degrading even before Trump threatened to withhold the payments. Moreover, it is an admission that Republicans do not believe they can meaningfully improve on the Obama administration's implementation of the law.

3. The Bill Provides New Entitlements For Middle-Income Americans. Obamacare gives subsidies for insurance purchase to families of four making four times the federal poverty level ($98,000). The Senate Republican bill merely reduces the cap to $86,000. But as prices rise — which they will, given continuation of the Obamacare pre-existing condition requirement and the end of the Obamacare mandates and taxes — those subsidies will not be enough. This also creates a cliff in coverage for families who make just more than the prescribed amount. The Senate version ties subsidies to income rather than age, which means that it weakens incentives for young people to buy insurance.

4. The Bill Dramatically Alters Medicaid … Down The Road. This was Paul Ryan’s great priority, and the Senate bill retains it. Originally, the House bill would begin rolling back federal funding on a need-based basis beginning in 2020 and end the open-ended funding of expansion of Medicaid enrollees. The Senate bill would now begin the rollback in 2021, after the next election cycle, and in 2025 would create a growth cap on Medicaid payments linked to inflation rather than health cost inflation. This provides savings down the road…but those will never materialize, since Congress can always dump those cuts by the side of the road. As Suderman says, “The Medicaid provisions … may best be understood as budget gimmicks.”

5. The Bill Defunds Planned Parenthood … For One Year. Medicaid would not be able to fund Planned Parenthood for a period of one year. There is no long-term plan to block Planned Parenthood funding; it’s hard to imagine that this provision is anything but a sugar cube to the Right in an attempt to sweeten a bitter drink.

6. The Individual Mandate And Taxes Disappear. Like the House bill, the Senate bill does away with the individual mandate. That’s good, except that by retaining Obamacare’s regulations and getting rid of the mandate, the Trumpcare bill would exacerbate the Obamacare death spiral. Furthermore, because the Medicaid cuts take place only down the road, this means that Republicans are basically borrowing to pay their bills.

As always, once Republicans accept the political premise of Democratic policy, they merely become Democrats in disguise. The biggest problem here is that by owning Democrat-lite policy, that disguise is ripped away, and Republicans will now be blamed for whatever comes next.

Already, several conservative senators including Mike Lee (R-UT), Rand Paul (R-KY), Ted Cruz (R-TX), and Ron Johnson (R-WI) have said they cannot support this bill. It remains to be seen whether Republicans will cave to public pressure the way so many House conservatives did, or whether they actually demand repeal.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/...bamacare-ben-shapiro

McConnell will call for a vote, even if he knows it will fail. Then, they will move on to other things.

Why does ANYBODY think the US Government, the most inefficient organization, can fix healthcare??

The US Government is very effective, but never efficient.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
I hope the republicans get on board and pass this legislation ASAP. It's time to fix this and move on.

Ya got any money you wanna bet on where this goes? I read a piece on Friday (still looking for the link to post) that speculated the GOP has no really appetite whatsoever to tackle this repeal, and the dissenting GOP senators will give McConnell the ammo he needs to simply shrug his shoulders, and then bury this issue at the bottom of the Repub agenda with the excuse they can't get it done and there are too many other just as important issues (i.e. tax reform) that need to be addressed. That's the bet I'd put on the table given it caters specifically to the inherent cowardice of the GOP.

McConnell will probably call for a vote - no doubt. It's either this or nothing - there will not ever be a 'one sentence repeal' brought forward seriously (because it's not a serious or practical proposal). There are maybe 3 or 4 senators max who would vote for something like that, and I don't think they really would if it ever came forward.

The can-kicking, budgetary gimmicks, and robbing from Peter to pay Paul, are entirely antithetical to anything that remotely resembles a conservative point of view.

Not only are they not repealing it, they aren't even improving it in any material way, and are taking on the burden of ownership over this mess in a 100% all-show-no-go manner.

At this point, just leave the piece of shit alone and focus on other things, as the so-called improvements are so weak and superficial that there's really no point in bothering, except for a very few in a very few circumstances, virtually none of which helps "the people" or accomplishes the stated goal of providing better help for more people for cheaper.

I'm willing to accept - begrudgingly - that an actual repeal is - right now - essentially impossible. What I don't accept is the solution path they've chosen or why. Buncha idiots.

It doesn't matter if this passes or not.

"This", is the same thing we already have. A couple tweaks here that make it a few % better, and a few there that make it a couple % worse. I can watch it implode under the name Obamacare, Trumpcare or whatever moniker gets attached, but implode it will.

I'm young and healthy, and a member of several minority groups exempted from having to pay for any of it. I'm an unbiased, objective observer.

Hopefully, by the time I get old and unhealthy this dumbassery will have long since shat the bed and renormalized.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
It doesn't matter if this passes or not. . .

Well, I have to disagree.

It matters a great deal.

If it does pass, the Republican Party will be left holding a putrid package of shit that it will never be able to wash off its hands.

It better NOT pass.

Repeal of ObamaCare is the only acceptable "solution".

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
At this point, just leave the piece of shit alone and focus on other things...

Do you really think this cast of clowns in the GOP can do any better with tax reform or any of the other 'big' issues? They're simply too timid and cowardly to do what needs to be done because any real action would offend some constituency somewhere.

quote:

I'm willing to accept - begrudgingly - that an actual repeal is - right now - essentially impossible.

Ya know, it might just be worth it to give this group of RINOs a majority in the House and a 60 seat majority in the Senate, just to watch them squirm for some new excuse why they still couldn't do anything with healthcare, or tax reform, or... At this point, I don't think unstoppable GOP majorities in both houses of Congress would change a thing. Its the people holding those seats, not the number of seats held that's the problem.