Maybe the answer is to embrace the internet age. Offer all those services and have a strong model for firearms transferring. Keep guns on display for customers to handle and try out in the the range then let them order the guns online. There are some dealers around here that charge $80 for transfers. I once told a dealer...would you rather me buy 1-2 guns from you a year and you make $100-150 on me on those two sales or make $20 per transfer on 20 transfers a year? It fell on deaf ears.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dusty78,

quote:

I once told a dealer...would you rather me buy 1-2 guns from you a year and you make $100-150 on me on those two sales or make $20 per transfer on 20 transfers a year? It fell on deaf ears.

I'd tell you to scram.

If all dealers charged $80 or more, would you still be buying undervalued product from online or out of state retailers with little to no overhead? Would really be something, if all FFL holders in a given state "unionized" and charged a ridiculous amount for transfers.

I realize that this is capitalism, etc, but after 20 years in this industry I'm a bit jaded and a bit agitated with the race to the bottom. People cry about the lack of quality in firearms like current production Marlins, or "Winchester" or even Colt, but the current consumer shops price before quality in damn near every aspect of their consumer interactions. It's a slippery slope once a product is undervalued by every link in the chain.

The old man at the local gun store isn’t the oy one who doesn’t understand being competitive. Look at the listings on gunbroker, you’ll see pages of Shields going for under $350, then pages of the exact same gun going higher until it’s listed for way over $400. Who are these people? And who would go past 3 pages of cheaper guns to buy the same one for $75 more?

quote:

Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:

quote:

I once told a dealer...would you rather me buy 1-2 guns from you a year and you make $100-150 on me on those two sales or make $20 per transfer on 20 transfers a year? It fell on deaf ears.

I'd tell you to scram.

If all dealers charged $80 or more, would you still be buying undervalued product from online or out of state retailers with little to no overhead? Would really be something, if all FFL holders in a given state "unionized" and charged a ridiculous amount for transfers.

I realize that this is capitalism, etc, but after 20 years in this industry I'm a bit jaded and a bit agitated with the race to the bottom. People cry about the lack of quality in firearms like current production Marlins, or "Winchester" or even Colt, but the current consumer shops price before quality in damn near every aspect of their consumer interactions. It's a slippery slope once a product is undervalued by every link in the chain.

You lost me at unionize. And telling me to scram is exactly why all these gunshops are going away. Like I said before innovate or die.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
https://www.facebook.com/TannersSportCenter/

I'll hop in on the Tanner's endorsement as well.

The only problem there is parking because they're usually very busy. It gets really bad around the holidays.

quote:

Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
People like you've described, and the advent of the internet have completely ruined the profitability model of this industry. Making less than 10% on a complicated, high quality, manufactured item is asinine; but that is the world we live in.

More manufacturers are getting aggressive with their MTP and MAP policies, which is a welcome change. Retirees with a pension, one-lungers looking for beer money, and nerds with a laptop tied into a distributor feed need to all go away. Permanently.

Agree with all this. The kind of people the OP is talking about can go pound sand.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I think the disconnect happens when you charge the high margins and don’t have good customer service. As mentioned above Tanners has both the lowest prices around and the best customer service. It can be done

I know you're not trying to say that if you're not Tanner's, you don't deserve to make a profit margin, but it almost reads that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I guess my point is that I’m this day inage where internet prices set the standard dealers who are willing to do what my buddy does...

The internet doesn't set the price, the manufacturer does. MSRP and MAP. MAP is an agreement between the manufacturer and the retailer to help protect the integrity of the product being sold. You may think it's a solid business plan, but with the market being soft, I would expect that your "buddy" will probably hear from the brands he deals. If he and his ilk are pissing off other dealers at shows, you can bet your ass they've reported him to the manufacturers. And you can also bet they won't share your view of how business can and should work.

I wouldn't be surprised if the really high volume dealers negotiate a better price from their suppliers and are making a bit more than their customers and competitors think.
The auto business does this. Invoice is only a theoretical price. There is hold back and other incentives paid back to them later based on volume.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
People like you've described, and the advent of the internet have completely ruined the profitability model of this industry. Making less than 10% on a complicated, high quality, manufactured item is asinine; but that is the world we live in.

More manufacturers are getting aggressive with their MTP and MAP policies, which is a welcome change. Retirees with a pension, one-lungers looking for beer money, and nerds with a laptop tied into a distributor feed need to all go away. Permanently.

Agree with all this. The kind of people the OP is talking about can go pound sand.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I think the disconnect happens when you charge the high margins and don’t have good customer service. As mentioned above Tanners has both the lowest prices around and the best customer service. It can be done

I know you're not trying to say that if you're not Tanner's, you don't deserve to make a profit margin, but it almost reads that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I guess my point is that I’m this day inage where internet prices set the standard dealers who are willing to do what my buddy does...

The internet doesn't set the price, the manufacturer does. MSRP and MAP. MAP is an agreement between the manufacturer and the retailer to help protect the integrity of the product being sold. You may think it's a solid business plan, but with the market being soft, I would expect that your "buddy" will probably hear from the brands he deals. If he and his ilk are pissing off other dealers at shows, you can bet your ass they've reported him to the manufacturers. And you can also bet they won't share your view of how business can and should work.

If he buys from distributors and not manufacture directly does MAP effect him? If he buys from a second party does MAP still apply to him? I honestly don’t know. I know of distributors that sell to non-dealers at prices below MAP.

What I was saying is that plenty of shops have high margins and shitty customer service. Tanners is high volume not margins and has great customer service. Someone else mentioned that high volume dealers are akin to Walmart with little to no CS...I was merely pointing out that for Tanners that isn’t the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
If he buys from distributors and not manufacture directly does MAP effect him? If he buys from a second party does MAP still apply to him? I honestly don’t know. I know of distributors that sell to non-dealers at prices below MAP.

You know, I'm not sure either. Possibly not if he's buying from a distributor. What the manufacturer can or cannot do about that, I don't know. What I do know is that manufacturers don't want their stuff being sold just over cost in the way you describe because it errodes incentive for shops to buy into the brand and become dealers. If there's anything they can do about him, I would expect that they probably will. Guys like him are *the very reason* MAP exists.

Gun manufacturers don't just want to sell guns online, they want them in stores where they can be handled. If stores can't compete with guys like your buddy, then they're not spending the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy into the brand and become dealers. The smaller stores that don't get end-column pricing are still valuable to manufacturers because they get their product out where consumers can see and handle it. Manufacturers who care about their brand try to protect that part of the process. So whether he's buying from a distributor or buying direct, he's the kinda guy doing the manufacturer zero favors.

As to the idea of having demo models on display for you to order off of, with big ticket mechanical items that you operate by hand, there's always going to be customers who want to handle the actual thing they're buying, not just the demo.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
What I was saying is that plenty of shops have high margins and shitty customer service. Tanners is high volume not margins and has great customer service. Someone else mentioned that high volume dealers are akin to Walmart with little to no CS...I was merely pointing out that for Tanners that isn’t the case.

Ahh, that makes sense now, thanks.

I think the crux of the issue is the perceived premium you pay for poor, little, or no customer service at a bad shop. If that's the case, absolutely don't purchase from them and if you feel inclined to do so, tell them why. Vote with your wallet, I wouldn't tell anyone not to. However, I posit that supporting guys like your buddy helps the downward trend. "If I can get the same gun for $100 cheaper from this guy with the same level of support and customer service (meaning zero), then why not?" Because you're supporting the business model that says the retailer need do nothing more than sell the gun, which I thought you were arguing against. If guys like your buddy are allowed to flourish, then where's the motivation for the traditional brick and mortar shop to buy into a brand they can't compete on, and are expected to help support? I think we'd probably all be better off if we start insisting on proper customer service and informing shops when and why they've lost a sale rather than just using them as a place to finger-fuck the goods and make a list of what to buy online.

This has been an interesting read.

I think the successful shops have to integrate all of the factors. Like car dealerships, some areas might carry more of the weight than others.

While we would all like to have a one stop shop, it's not always possible. A shop would have to tie up tens of thousands of dollars in inventory for that to happen. Maybe even hundreds of thousands of dollars.

For instance you go in there and buy a Sig. You want a holster for it but there are so many factors: belt loop size, color, right/left hand, material, cant, etc. A shop simply cannot stock that much inventory with the hopes that someone comes in to buy it. So what do people do? They go home and order it online.

Night sights are the same. If they have a smith there, he has to be salaried. What does he do when he's not gunsmithing? How many different combination of sights can they stock? What about scopes and reflex sights?

I've read that for some dealers, charging $20-25 for a transfer simply isn't worth it. Receiving the firearm, logging it, doing the 4473, phone call and keeping paperwork aren't worth the money. Is that true?

Having a range sets you up for EPA scrutiny. Who is going to run the range? You'll have to spend tens of thousands building it and keeping it up with ventilation equipment.

I think to the customer, the gun industry may sound like a high profit money maker but when you break down the cost of doing business, it doesn't seem that profitable.

distributors do discount for volume, usually that volume is a bit high for the avg small shop

the more you sell, the more likely you are to get better discounts, and better deals, like limited/allocated items, specials, and offers for discontinued models,

vs the smaller guy that order 10-15 guns a week

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
If guys like your buddy are allowed to flourish, then where's the motivation for the traditional brick and mortar shop to buy into a brand they can't compete on, and are expected to help support? I think we'd probably all be better off if we start insisting on proper customer service and informing shops when and why they've lost a sale rather than just using them as a place to finger-fuck the goods and make a list of what to buy online.

I'll start by saying that I've never had a shop offer me an extra $100 for a trade in order to secure my business !

Your request is a bit misguided from my standpoint as a consumer. Telling us to pay the extra $100 for the exact same item an online retailer (or a competing brick and mortar store for that matter) has in stock is a bit ridiculous. Why should any person looking to buy a particular item do such a thing? Many people still work for their income and some of us even try to spend it the wisest way possible. That means shopping for bargains when we can. Sometimes that means finding a particular gun locally, checking the price, and then going home and ordering it online because we've found it for not just $100 less, but in a lot of cases, $200-300 less. Why is that important? Because money doesn't grow on trees! Our kids need to be fed, clothed, housed, and educated just like yours.

I get your frustration but let's be honest, the internet isn't going away and neither are customers that shop for the lowest possible price for a particular product. That doesn't necessarily mean that we won't pay a premium for a quality product like a Sig or Dan Wesson rather than tossing a few hundred at a Hi-Point, it just means that we don't want a shop to rake us over the coals because they've only made 2 other sales that month and need our hard earned money to get their kids the latest iDevice.

I see nothing wrong with anyone selling his wares at a lower price than any of his other competitors, nor do I find it particularly wrong for him to sell at twice the price of his competitors (though I do if he is the only game in town). That last little bit in parenthesis I believe is the bigger issue for brick and mortar stores currently. People are now able to freely shop across the country and find lower prices for items they are looking for. Folks have found multiple sources that will sell any given item cheaper than they WILL. It is causing retail establishments to lose their collective minds, but rather than bitch about it, I'd like to see them come up with a solution that woo's the customer base back in their direction.

Honestly, it sounds like the OP's guy is doing well for himself and those that are unwilling to change are afraid and want him blackballed. Instead of being pissed, I would think the smart ones would be looking to emulate his success. But what do I know, I'm just a stupid consumer, that should spend twice what I need to to buy something

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
Another thread got me thinking about this. So I know a guy who has an FFL and sells at local gunshows. He sells all his guns at $20 above cost. He will sell between 2-300 guns per show. He sells so much that certain shows have gotten complaints from the other vendors because he gets all the business. He has actually been asked not to return to that specific show because he sells too much. In many cases he undercuts other dealers by $100 or more. This guy moves a ton of volume.

I don't understand why the people who run the show would tell him not to return. He paid the table fee just like everyone else and he's not doing anything illegal.

The beauty of the free market at work. Everyone is free to try different business and pricing models, and the market tells us which ones work.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
Another thread got me thinking about this. So I know a guy who has an FFL and sells at local gunshows. He sells all his guns at $20 above cost. He will sell between 2-300 guns per show. He sells so much that certain shows have gotten complaints from the other vendors because he gets all the business. He has actually been asked not to return to that specific show because he sells too much. In many cases he undercuts other dealers by $100 or more. This guy moves a ton of volume.

I don't understand why the people who run the show would tell him not to return. He paid the table fee just like everyone else and he's not doing anything illegal.

Because the show makes money on vendors attending, not the amount of firearms sold. So if that guy shows up and nobody else comes, they lose.

I'm with Dusty78 on this - innovate or die. The overpriced brick and mortar store that charges $150 more than you can find online or full MSRP is going the way of the dodo-bird. Why someone wouldn't want to make easy $20-25 on transfers where you have to invest little to no capital is beyond me, as compared to spending $600 to make at most $100.

People have cracked the code about buying over the internet, just like everything else. My preferred FFL stocks a handful of guns but transfers for $25 all day long. They call you when it arrives, know almost everyone by name, and it's zero fuss - often you walk in, say hello, grab a 4473 and start filling it out while they are finishing another customer (either firearms or their other primary business of performance car parts). By the time you are done, your firearm is in front of you to inspect / finger bang as you see fit - you give them a thumbs up and they start the state background check and in short order you are on your way.

I guess I just hate paying too much for firearms at brick and mortar stores that to the large extent don't know what the fuck they are talking about and usually look down / talk down to the customers.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:

quote:

Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:

quote:

I once told a dealer...would you rather me buy 1-2 guns from you a year and you make $100-150 on me on those two sales or make $20 per transfer on 20 transfers a year? It fell on deaf ears.

I'd tell you to scram.

If all dealers charged $80 or more, would you still be buying undervalued product from online or out of state retailers with little to no overhead? Would really be something, if all FFL holders in a given state "unionized" and charged a ridiculous amount for transfers.

I realize that this is capitalism, etc, but after 20 years in this industry I'm a bit jaded and a bit agitated with the race to the bottom. People cry about the lack of quality in firearms like current production Marlins, or "Winchester" or even Colt, but the current consumer shops price before quality in damn near every aspect of their consumer interactions. It's a slippery slope once a product is undervalued by every link in the chain.

You lost me at unionize. And telling me to scram is exactly why all these gunshops are going away. Like I said before innovate or die.

This exactly. And I don't want the gun sitting behind the counter that has been fingerbanged 1000 times, I want a weapon that I paid for and I'm the first, second, or at most third to open the box from the factory.

Unionize? Please. GFTO already, have fun paying your Union dudes out of the minimal profit you used to make.

quote:

Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
People like you've described, and the advent of the internet have completely ruined the profitability model of this industry. Making less than 10% on a complicated, high quality, manufactured item is asinine; but that is the world we live in.

More manufacturers are getting aggressive with their MTP and MAP policies, which is a welcome change. Retirees with a pension, one-lungers looking for beer money, and nerds with a laptop tied into a distributor feed need to all go away. Permanently.

Yes yes comrade, you need price controls for your business to survive...

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
People like you've described, and the advent of the internet have completely ruined the profitability model of this industry. Making less than 10% on a complicated, high quality, manufactured item is asinine; but that is the world we live in.

More manufacturers are getting aggressive with their MTP and MAP policies, which is a welcome change. Retirees with a pension, one-lungers looking for beer money, and nerds with a laptop tied into a distributor feed need to all go away. Permanently.

Yes yes comrade, you need price controls for your business to survive...

Wanna bet he bitches about the pricing practices of his local utility offices? Or his insurance premiums under O-care? Or chicken wings?

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
Retirees with a pension, one-lungers looking for beer money, and nerds with a laptop tied into a distributor feed need to all go away. Permanently.

Yes yes comrade, you need price controls for your business to survive...

Wanna bet he bitches about the pricing practices of his local utility offices? Or his insurance premiums under O-care? Or chicken wings?

Nice and biblical of him as well. I think he really wants a subsidy!

A counter to his one lunger, retirees, and nerds dig is the overweight, ignorant yet know it all brick and mortar gun-shop counter guy. You know the one, he carries a cheap 19-eleben and rants about 'conspiracies', 'gun bans', and give the 'chack-chack' speech to people needed a HD weapon.

Why do you think people have walked away from brick and mortar stores? Sure, prices are one thing. But if getting eyeballed by a mouth-breathing operator wannabee annoys me - someone who gets annoyed at very few things - what do you think it has done to honest people who are looking for some guidance and help?

Yes, it drove them to the internet after years of being made to feel stupid and gullible.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:
Honestly, it sounds like the OP's guy is doing well for himself and those that are unwilling to change are afraid and want him blackballed. Instead of being pissed, I would think the smart ones would be looking to emulate his success. But what do I know, I'm just a stupid consumer, that should spend twice what I need to to buy something

Not much background in retail, I'm guessing? You responded to a lot of stuff I didn't write, and not much of what I did.