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Originally posted by Dusty78:

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Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:

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I once told a dealer...would you rather me buy 1-2 guns from you a year and you make $100-150 on me on those two sales or make $20 per transfer on 20 transfers a year? It fell on deaf ears.

I'd tell you to scram.

If all dealers charged $80 or more, would you still be buying undervalued product from online or out of state retailers with little to no overhead? Would really be something, if all FFL holders in a given state "unionized" and charged a ridiculous amount for transfers.

I realize that this is capitalism, etc, but after 20 years in this industry I'm a bit jaded and a bit agitated with the race to the bottom. People cry about the lack of quality in firearms like current production Marlins, or "Winchester" or even Colt, but the current consumer shops price before quality in damn near every aspect of their consumer interactions. It's a slippery slope once a product is undervalued by every link in the chain.

You lost me at unionize. And telling me to scram is exactly why all these gunshops are going away. Like I said before innovate or die.

Yeah a guy I know builds ARs and does a lot of transfers. He found his way. The days of an old fart sitting behind a counter and making 25% on a firearm are long gone and good riddance.

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But if getting eyeballed by a mouth-breathing operator wannabee annoys me - someone who gets annoyed at very few things - what do you think it has done to honest people who are looking for some guidance and help?

Yes, it drove them to the internet after years of being made to feel stupid and gullible.

It is a paradox. There are people who like guns, so they figure they go into the gun business, but neglect the fact that they are misanthropes or who lose patience after being asked the same question repeatedly by customers.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Vote with your wallet, I wouldn't tell anyone not to.

People already are.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
If guys like your buddy are allowed to flourish, then where's the motivation for the traditional brick and mortar shop to buy into a brand they can't compete on, and are expected to help support? I think we'd probably all be better off if we start insisting on proper customer service and informing shops when and why they've lost a sale rather than just using them as a place to finger-fuck the goods and make a list of what to buy online.

Guys like him are flourishing BECAUSE brick and mortar shops have had shitty C/S and attitudes for oh, well, forever?

Prior to the internet you only had the gunshop and the gunrags to look for to get information about weapons. You had to deal with the cocky attitudes, poor knowledge, and general ignorance at 95% of gun stores. And high prices. There was no other option.

But now there is the internet and gun forums. Information is available about the weapons you are considering and where to get them at the best price.

Why deal with the hassle of going to a LGS, asking about a weapon they likely don't have on hand and can't obtain within a realistic amount of time?

Personally, I don't need customer service from most types of stores at any price - the LGS is one of those. The manufacturer should (and does) deal with it. I don't need a guy to tell me that I'm limp wristing or using the wrong ammo, or any one of the million excuses a gun store will give to not do anything about an issue.

The myth that gun shops are bastions of knowledge and provides of proper weaponry burst at least a decade ago. They rested on their laurels of being the only game in town and failed / refused to adapt. They lash out and blame everyone else at their inability to innovate and compete. It's happened to every industry - some innovate, some disappear like Block Buster Video.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

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Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
People like you've described, and the advent of the internet have completely ruined the profitability model of this industry. Making less than 10% on a complicated, high quality, manufactured item is asinine; but that is the world we live in.

More manufacturers are getting aggressive with their MTP and MAP policies, which is a welcome change. Retirees with a pension, one-lungers looking for beer money, and nerds with a laptop tied into a distributor feed need to all go away. Permanently.

Agree with all this. The kind of people the OP is talking about can go pound sand.


The internet doesn't set the price, the manufacturer does. MSRP and MAP. MAP is an agreement between the manufacturer and the retailer to help protect the integrity of the product being sold. You may think it's a solid business plan, but with the market being soft, I would expect that your "buddy" will probably hear from the brands he deals. If he and his ilk are pissing off other dealers at shows, you can bet your ass they've reported him to the manufacturers. And you can also bet they won't share your view of how business can and should work.

Then you said

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
However, I posit that supporting guys like your buddy helps the downward trend. "If I can get the same gun for $100 cheaper from this guy with the same level of support and customer service (meaning zero), then why not?" Because you're supporting the business model that says the retailer need do nothing more than sell the gun, which I thought you were arguing against. If guys like your buddy are allowed to flourish, then where's the motivation for the traditional brick and mortar shop to buy into a brand they can't compete on, and are expected to help support? I think we'd probably all be better off if we start insisting on proper customer service and informing shops when and why they've lost a sale rather than just using them as a place to finger-fuck the goods and make a list of what to buy online.

You agreed that the OP's buddy (and people like him) are cutting into your profits. You want them to go away, as in no competition. I as a consumer, was responding to that because a market with no competition is rigged. See my later comment on O-care and utilities.

I'll also add that while the internet doesn't set the price, the consumer actually does, not the manufacturer. They may have a suggested retail price for an item, but ultimately, the person paying for an item will determine if that item is worth whatever price is being asked or they'll find a similar product from another manufacturer for a price that is more desirable. Don't believe me? Ask Colt why they are struggling financially. They can make all the $3000 paper weights they want. If nobody is willing to pay that for them, then that's all they are....paperweights! Same goes for all of the other manufacturers too. I'd bet as long as their guns are moving right now (even at $20 above cost), they are extremely happy.

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Originally posted by mutedblade:
You agreed that the OP's buddy (and people like him) are cutting into your profits. You want them to go away, as in no competition. I as a consumer, was responding to that because a market with no competition is rigged. See my later comment on O-care and utilities.

Lots of assumptions. Where did I say I was a gun shop owner, or anything of the sort?

Your last paragraph neatly answers my prior question of you.

Two things that are apparent here, and one of them nobody has brought up:

1) LGS need to step-up their game, modernize or, get out fo the business. Let's face it, for every 'really cool shop' we've been in, there's about 20-30 others that typify the stereotype that RINOSWO pointed out. The owner loves guns but has little business sense, the employees have received minimal training and are simply happy to be able to finger all the inventory. The owner, and the rest of the staff likely have a combination of zero IT skills, admin skills, visual merchandising skills, never worked at a well run gun shop or, simply under funded the inventory, thus the rest of the store looks like a garage sale. The gun industry is a regulated business, the amount of shops that continue to 'stick-it out' despite all the requisite bureaucracy is staggering; you have to wonder how much sense these business owners have.

2) The Firearm manufacturers need to get out of the distributor model. If the firearm brands were concerned about keeping a clean market place, maintaining prices, and reinforcing business relationships with their dealers, they'd drop the distributors. Once product goes to a distributor, you give up control of its distribution and the price that it sells at. Right now, shinny big-box national store sells the same product as the mildew surplus store; now with the internet, I can bypass all of those traditional channels. Who's helping who...not the manufactures.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

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Originally posted by mutedblade:
You agreed that the OP's buddy (and people like him) are cutting into your profits. You want them to go away, as in no competition. I as a consumer, was responding to that because a market with no competition is rigged. See my later comment on O-care and utilities.

Lots of assumptions. Where did I say I was a gun shop owner, or anything of the sort?

Your last paragraph neatly answers my prior question of you.

I do actually have retail experience (national grocery chain management), though I do not run my own business, nor do I have a desire to. Regardless, apologies for making the assumption that you are a dealer. Just expressing my opinions on the subject, from the viewpoint of a consumer. Take this for what you paid for it, but my belief is that today's retail businesses need to find a way to compete against the expanding online presence of all the other retail businesses. If they can't adapt to the current market, do they still belong in business?

Some people are throwing around the term "MAP" like it's a minimum selling price set by the manufacturer when it's actually Minimum ADVERTISED Pricing. That means there are certain restrictions on publicizing a price below MAP. It doesn't mean you can't SELL below that price. When you go to an online store and have to place the item in a cart or apply a discount code to see the final price, that's done to avoid violating a MAP policy.

Multi-step distribution systems have also really hurt small local retailers in many industries, and manufacturers are often the most guilty when it comes to squeezing the little guys. They often cut big retailers special deals to move product that undercut the wholesale prices they charge distributors, which in turn mark up to the retailer, who adds his own mark up. It's not uncommon to hear small retailers complain that big retailers are selling at retail for less than their wholesale cost from the distributor.

When you hear a dealer complaining that another guy is selling below "dealer cost" that may not actually be the other guy's cost.

"Unionize" was in quotation marks in my OP because you the consumer are subject to the firearms laws that are currently in place. If tomorrow, all gun stores in the US decided to charge $500 for transfers to protect their inventory this conversation and its poorly contrived points would be mute. You'd be fucked. Understand the industry, or don't. Nobody gives a shit, but when your local transfer whore dries up in the current market and you have to drive 2 hours to buy your POS that everyone in the chain to you made 2% on, don't cry to anyone in the industry.

When all sales move to the internet why would the manufacturer need web based dealers?

The manufacturer could toss up their own website, take their own orders, and ship them out to FFLs to do the transfers....if anybody is even willing to do that.

I see local stores beginning to charge a "cover charge". You want to come in and fondle the goods? Great. Cost X amount to enter, and the cost will be deducted from your purchase. I am a business owner, and I have many friends who own businesses. I can tell you that they are all tired of providing a show room for internet retailers to sell their goods out of without getting a commission.

One of these days the power is going to go out and 90% of our population will die within a week because the internet was their answer to everything.

Question for the preacher: Would your proposed transfer policy extend to used firearms? I use my dealer for transfers, but I don’t think I’ve ever had him transfer anything that he carries one of. Where does one draw the line?

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The manufacturer could toss up their own website, take their own orders, and ship them out to FFLs to do the transfers....if anybody is even willing to do that.

They aren't willing to do that. Too much paperwork, deadbeats that don't pay etc.

As far as the cover charge deal, I agree wholeheartedly. You're going to come in to my place of business, fingerbang everything, waste my salesmans time, and then buy online for $30 cheaper and have me do the transfer? GTFO. Leave. If all of the other FFLs in my area said the same thing, you'd be hosed.

That's why I love Glock so much. MAP and MTP are enforced with an iron fist. Want to be a GSD? Brick and mortar store with at least 35 business hours per week. Violations are dealt with in typical Austrian fashion.

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Question for the preacher: Would your proposed transfer policy extend to used firearms? I use my dealer for transfers, but I don’t think I’ve ever had him transfer anything that he carries one of. Where does one draw the line?

Absolutely not. If you found some amazing used gun to add to your collection, straight up normal fee. Might even do it for free. However, if you order a shield 9mm for $20 less than I sell it for, you can find another paper pusher.

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Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:

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Question for the preacher: Would your proposed transfer policy extend to used firearms? I use my dealer for transfers, but I don’t think I’ve ever had him transfer anything that he carries one of. Where does one draw the line?

Absolutely not. If you found some amazing used gun to add to your collection, straight up normal fee. Might even do it for free. However, if you order a shield 9mm for $20 less than I sell it for, you can find another paper pusher.

What if it's a Gen 5 Glock with 20 rounds through it?

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Nobody gives a shit, but when your local transfer whore dries up in the current market and you have to drive 2 hours to buy your POS that everyone in the chain to you made 2% on, don't cry to anyone in the industry.

Except you.

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Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
you can find another paper pusher.

Which ain't hard to do.

FFL Finder – Locate an FFL dealer in your area

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Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:

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Question for the preacher: Would your proposed transfer policy extend to used firearms? I use my dealer for transfers, but I don’t think I’ve ever had him transfer anything that he carries one of. Where does one draw the line?

Absolutely not. If you found some amazing used gun to add to your collection, straight up normal fee. Might even do it for free. However, if you order a shield 9mm for $20 less than I sell it for, you can find another paper pusher.

With that attitude, how is business going?

I'm pretty sure I know, but just curious.

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Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:

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The manufacturer could toss up their own website, take their own orders, and ship them out to FFLs to do the transfers....if anybody is even willing to do that.

They aren't willing to do that. Too much paperwork, deadbeats that don't pay etc.

As far as the cover charge deal, I agree wholeheartedly. You're going to come in to my place of business, fingerbang everything, waste my salesmans time, and then buy online for $30 cheaper and have me do the transfer? GTFO. Leave. If all of the other FFLs in my area said the same thing, you'd be hosed.

That's why I love Glock so much. MAP and MTP are enforced with an iron fist. Want to be a GSD? Brick and mortar store with at least 35 business hours per week. Violations are dealt with in typical Austrian fashion.

You keep saying $20-$30 cheaper. I’m seeing shops selling guns for $400+ more. For example the dealer cost for a Sig 210A is $1259ish. My local dealer had it priced at $1799. A dealer in SC not to far away had one for $1379 which I find totally reasonable. I can walk into any of 5 big gun shops in my area and see Smith M&P 2.0’s listed for $550. That’s over $150 more than what they sell for online. Fuck that and any shop that looks to get 25-30% over cost.

This has been an interesting discussion. I've never been a businessman, but I can follow most of it. I have a question of Rev. A.J. though. I am a retiree on a pension, but why do I need to go away? Permanently.

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Originally posted by rock185:
I have a question of Rev. A.J. though. I am a retiree on a pension, but why do I need to go away? Permanently.

Cuz Comrade Rev AJ needs a stable, Socialist run business environment to sell his over priced guns, since he failed to innovate like the rest of the vendors.

And Scram, while you are at it. He's got $599 S&W Shields to move, and $1799 SIG Legions.

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Originally posted by Dusty78:
...I know a guy who has an FFL and sells at local gunshows. He sells all his guns at $20 above cost. He will sell between 2-300 guns per show.

I'm certain I know who you're talking about and have bought from him multiple times. His business has a funny name.

He is THE go-to dealer at local shows, and not just because of price. This guy and his wife are honest, hard-working people... the kind I like to deal with.