In 2010, the Cuyahoga County Recorder's Office in Ohio was sued when it decided to charge $2 per page for photocopies of public documents.

The following scene is a deposition from that court case.

The dialogue is presented verbatim.

(and I thought it's funny as heck and think you will, too.)




Link

It depends on what the definition of 'is' is.

Geez!

That was a wtiness who was over-coached.

Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter-accusations!

I had such a conversation once with a bureaucrat in repro when I wanted to use an Air Force form as a template (with removal of identifying elements) for a local document with approval by our PA, and she refused to. I removed each element sequentially, with the query "Is THAT an Air Force form?" with the response a nasally "Yessss!" Until I got down to a blank piece of paper, which she admitted, after a long pause and considerable thought, that the completely empty white paper was NOT an Air Force form. Which I then rebuilt for our use by adding back each element, one at a time.

I've actually been that guy being deposed. Thing was: I was smart enough not to ask for clarifications to yes/no questions. They'd ask a question. They'd get it wrong in the slightest technical aspect, and I'd answer "no." E.g.: One time they used the acronym "RAM" (Random Access Memory) when what they clearly meant was "ROM" (Read-Only Memory).

I knew what they were looking for, but, because they got key questions wrong in technical aspects, they didn't get what it was from me.

I told my lawyer, as we were leaving the building: "Y'know, after they lose this case maybe I should go back and offer my services as a technical consultant. I would've had me nailed dead to rights."

Reminds me of...




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hn9xAaKUbw

Someone needs their ass stomped.

I've had training to answer government regulators for audits and I think it can apply here except in audits, there's no one to run interference for you unless you truly F'ed up in your response.

Answer the question and only the question. Be clear in your understanding of what facts, observations, and conclusions are. Never offer your conclusion. Never offer information not asked.

I doubt the lawyer yelled at the witness in that way in the depo.

And there are other ways to get around a witness like that. You can get him to define the terms, and then use them. Or, as the lawyer describe the process and then let him name it. In that depo, I'd guess that after he called it "Xerox," they went ahead and called the copying process Xerox after that point. But that is part of the fun of examining a witness.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I doubt the lawyer yelled at the witness in that way in the depo.

Perhaps you never saw a deposition by the late great Joseph Jamail. It was one of the best parts of being part of the Houston legal community in the late 80s and 1990s.

The witness was lucky if he only got yelled at.
Jamail would call him names, insult him and his lawyer and both of their families. It was quite something to see. Then when it was all over, he'd go and laugh about it because it was all an act designed to elicit a specific response. He was a master.

True, I never saw Jamail.

But I stand by my observation. Only the Joe Jamails of the world would try it, and only he could get away with it.

I confine myself to incredulity and sarcasm.

Been there done that. I just finished a trial two weeks ago where defendants expert (a doctor) would not admit that 40 times 10 is 400. Really-I have the transcript.

At the very end, when he was yelling, "WHAT DO YOU CALL THAT MACHINE?" I was saying to myself, "A Xerox machine".

I also use the terms, Vise Grips and Channellocks, rather than locking pliers and slip joint pliers.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Someone needs their ass stomped.

Which one? Deponent, deponent’s attorney or “interrogator?”

My money is on the deponent.

It seems obvious that the witness thought that there was some important distinction to be drawn between various copy-machine technologies. Without knowing what the case is about, I can't say whether that assessment was correct, although the questioning attorney clearly did not think those distinctions were important.

If the questioner was confident in the belief that they way the copy machine worked was not important, he could have let the witness define the "machine that makes copies of documents" in any way he wanted. Or he could have said; "How about this: We'll call it the "machine that makes copies" regardless of what mechanism it uses."

If the specific technology matters, then you have to ask the witness about each technology separately.

It does seem to me that the witness was over-coached about this. Many witnesses get very timid in a deposition and are unwilling to admit the sun rose that day, however. He could have been one of those witnesses. If the technology is important, he should stick to his guns. If it doesn't matter, then he just looks like a jackass and loses credibility by being so obstinate and evasive.

and that ladies and gentlemen is why I never wanted to be a lawyer...

https://www.cleveland.com/cuya...ses_copier_case.html

Cuyahoga County loses copier case; spent $55,000 in tax dollars on losing effort

quote:

LEVELAND, Ohio — Cuyahoga County violated state law for two years by trying to charge more than $200,000 for CDs loaded with copies of property records, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled Wednesday.

The high court said in a 7-0 decision that the county must provide CDs of recorded deeds and mortgages for $1, ending a dispute that cost county taxpayers as much as $55,000 in legal fees and garnered international attention because of a county employee's verbal acrobatics in defining the word "photocopier" during a deposition.

quote:

Greene and her staff based their charges on a state law that requires a $2-per-page fee to photocopy or fax documents. Based on that law, they argued that CDs containing copies of 104,000 pages of records should cost $208,000.

"A copy is a copy is a copy," attorney David Movius, whom the county hired to fight the suit, said last year

quote:

"When you say 'photocopying machine,' what do you mean?" asked Patterson, when questioned by Marburger.

Patterson still works for the county, making $65,000 a year.

Do you have disposable paper tissues in the office setting?

What do you mean?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
WHAT DO YOU CALL A PIECE OF PAPER USED TO WIPE YOUR NOSE AND BACK SIDE TO CLEAN UNDESIRABLE MATERIALS FROM YOUR ORIFICES?!!!!!!!!!!!

Kleenex.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
https://www.cleveland.com/cuya...ses_copier_case.html

Cuyahoga County loses copier case; spent $55,000 in tax dollars on losing effort

quote:

LEVELAND, Ohio — Cuyahoga County violated state law for two years by trying to charge more than $200,000 for CDs loaded with copies of property records, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled Wednesday.

The high court said in a 7-0 decision that the county must provide CDs of recorded deeds and mortgages for $1, ending a dispute that cost county taxpayers as much as $55,000 in legal fees and garnered international attention because of a county employee's verbal acrobatics in defining the word "photocopier" during a deposition.

quote:

Greene and her staff based their charges on a state law that requires a $2-per-page fee to photocopy or fax documents. Based on that law, they argued that CDs containing copies of 104,000 pages of records should cost $208,000.

"A copy is a copy is a copy," attorney David Movius, whom the county hired to fight the suit, said last year

quote:

"When you say 'photocopying machine,' what do you mean?" asked Patterson, when questioned by Marburger.

Patterson still works for the county, making $65,000 a year.

If the distinction is between machines that copy onto paper and copies on a memory stick, then I don't think the specific paper copying technology is important. The question is: Is an electronic-only copy covered by the rule that allows copies to be charged at $1 per page, or does the $1 fee apply to any kind of copy, electronic, paper, handwritten, on a wax tablet, positronic, ethertronic, etc.