"It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946.
July 03, 2018, 09:18 AM
FiveFiveSixFan
It depends on what the definition of 'is' is.
Geez!
July 03, 2018, 09:23 AM
jhe888
That was a wtiness who was over-coached.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
July 03, 2018, 09:25 AM
BamaJeepster
Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter-accusations!
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams
July 03, 2018, 09:40 AM
Doc H.
I had such a conversation once with a bureaucrat in repro when I wanted to use an Air Force form as a template (with removal of identifying elements) for a local document with approval by our PA, and she refused to. I removed each element sequentially, with the query "Is THAT an Air Force form?" with the response a nasally "Yessss!" Until I got down to a blank piece of paper, which she admitted, after a long pause and considerable thought, that the completely empty white paper was NOT an Air Force form. Which I then rebuilt for our use by adding back each element, one at a time.
"And gentlemen in England now abed, shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's Day"
July 03, 2018, 09:55 AM
ensigmatic
I've actually been that guy being deposed. Thing was: I was smart enough not to ask for clarifications to yes/no questions. They'd ask a question. They'd get it wrong in the slightest technical aspect, and I'd answer "no." E.g.: One time they used the acronym "RAM" (Random Access Memory) when what they clearly meant was "ROM" (Read-Only Memory).
I knew what they were looking for, but, because they got key questions wrong in technical aspects, they didn't get what it was from me.
I told my lawyer, as we were leaving the building: "Y'know, after they lose this case maybe I should go back and offer my services as a technical consultant. I would've had me nailed dead to rights."
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
"I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023
July 03, 2018, 11:23 AM
Rey HRH
I've had training to answer government regulators for audits and I think it can apply here except in audits, there's no one to run interference for you unless you truly F'ed up in your response.
Answer the question and only the question. Be clear in your understanding of what facts, observations, and conclusions are. Never offer your conclusion. Never offer information not asked.
"It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946.
July 03, 2018, 11:32 AM
jhe888
I doubt the lawyer yelled at the witness in that way in the depo.
And there are other ways to get around a witness like that. You can get him to define the terms, and then use them. Or, as the lawyer describe the process and then let him name it. In that depo, I'd guess that after he called it "Xerox," they went ahead and called the copying process Xerox after that point. But that is part of the fun of examining a witness.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
July 03, 2018, 11:52 AM
ChicagoSigMan
quote:
Originally posted by jhe888: I doubt the lawyer yelled at the witness in that way in the depo.
Perhaps you never saw a deposition by the late great Joseph Jamail. It was one of the best parts of being part of the Houston legal community in the late 80s and 1990s.
The witness was lucky if he only got yelled at. Jamail would call him names, insult him and his lawyer and both of their families. It was quite something to see. Then when it was all over, he'd go and laugh about it because it was all an act designed to elicit a specific response. He was a master.
July 03, 2018, 12:17 PM
jhe888
True, I never saw Jamail.
But I stand by my observation. Only the Joe Jamails of the world would try it, and only he could get away with it.
I confine myself to incredulity and sarcasm.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
July 03, 2018, 01:08 PM
rjbaal
Been there done that. I just finished a trial two weeks ago where defendants expert (a doctor) would not admit that 40 times 10 is 400. Really-I have the transcript.
___________________________
July 03, 2018, 01:20 PM
1967Goat
At the very end, when he was yelling, "WHAT DO YOU CALL THAT MACHINE?" I was saying to myself, "A Xerox machine".
I also use the terms, Vise Grips and Channellocks, rather than locking pliers and slip joint pliers.
July 03, 2018, 01:25 PM
bcereuss
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum: Someone needs their ass stomped.
Which one? Deponent, deponent’s attorney or “interrogator?”
My money is on the deponent.
July 03, 2018, 01:29 PM
jhe888
It seems obvious that the witness thought that there was some important distinction to be drawn between various copy-machine technologies. Without knowing what the case is about, I can't say whether that assessment was correct, although the questioning attorney clearly did not think those distinctions were important.
If the questioner was confident in the belief that they way the copy machine worked was not important, he could have let the witness define the "machine that makes copies of documents" in any way he wanted. Or he could have said; "How about this: We'll call it the "machine that makes copies" regardless of what mechanism it uses."
If the specific technology matters, then you have to ask the witness about each technology separately.
It does seem to me that the witness was over-coached about this. Many witnesses get very timid in a deposition and are unwilling to admit the sun rose that day, however. He could have been one of those witnesses. If the technology is important, he should stick to his guns. If it doesn't matter, then he just looks like a jackass and loses credibility by being so obstinate and evasive.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
July 03, 2018, 01:48 PM
smlsig
and that ladies and gentlemen is why I never wanted to be a lawyer...
------------------ Eddie
Our Founding Fathers were men who understood that the right thing is not necessarily the written thing. -kkina
Cuyahoga County loses copier case; spent $55,000 in tax dollars on losing effort
quote:
LEVELAND, Ohio — Cuyahoga County violated state law for two years by trying to charge more than $200,000 for CDs loaded with copies of property records, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled Wednesday.
The high court said in a 7-0 decision that the county must provide CDs of recorded deeds and mortgages for $1, ending a dispute that cost county taxpayers as much as $55,000 in legal fees and garnered international attention because of a county employee's verbal acrobatics in defining the word "photocopier" during a deposition.
quote:
Greene and her staff based their charges on a state law that requires a $2-per-page fee to photocopy or fax documents. Based on that law, they argued that CDs containing copies of 104,000 pages of records should cost $208,000.
"A copy is a copy is a copy," attorney David Movius, whom the county hired to fight the suit, said last year
quote:
"When you say 'photocopying machine,' what do you mean?" asked Patterson, when questioned by Marburger.
Patterson still works for the county, making $65,000 a year.
Do you have disposable paper tissues in the office setting?
What do you mean? . . . . . . . . . . . WHAT DO YOU CALL A PIECE OF PAPER USED TO WIPE YOUR NOSE AND BACK SIDE TO CLEAN UNDESIRABLE MATERIALS FROM YOUR ORIFICES?!!!!!!!!!!!
Cuyahoga County loses copier case; spent $55,000 in tax dollars on losing effort
quote:
LEVELAND, Ohio — Cuyahoga County violated state law for two years by trying to charge more than $200,000 for CDs loaded with copies of property records, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled Wednesday.
The high court said in a 7-0 decision that the county must provide CDs of recorded deeds and mortgages for $1, ending a dispute that cost county taxpayers as much as $55,000 in legal fees and garnered international attention because of a county employee's verbal acrobatics in defining the word "photocopier" during a deposition.
quote:
Greene and her staff based their charges on a state law that requires a $2-per-page fee to photocopy or fax documents. Based on that law, they argued that CDs containing copies of 104,000 pages of records should cost $208,000.
"A copy is a copy is a copy," attorney David Movius, whom the county hired to fight the suit, said last year
quote:
"When you say 'photocopying machine,' what do you mean?" asked Patterson, when questioned by Marburger.
Patterson still works for the county, making $65,000 a year.
If the distinction is between machines that copy onto paper and copies on a memory stick, then I don't think the specific paper copying technology is important. The question is: Is an electronic-only copy covered by the rule that allows copies to be charged at $1 per page, or does the $1 fee apply to any kind of copy, electronic, paper, handwritten, on a wax tablet, positronic, ethertronic, etc.
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
