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Member
posted April 11, 2024 09:14 AMHide Post
https://www.stlmag.com/news/po...o-get-back-together/

A complete history of the city and county separation and attempts to get back together
 
Posts: 848 | Location: STL | Registered: January 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted April 11, 2024 10:04 AMHide Post
^^^ St. Louis’ Great Divorce ... and attempts to reunite

That contains a pretty good timeline.

It never should have happened in 1875:

quote:
First, the Scheme to divide the city of St. Louis from the county was submitted after midnight on July 3, 1875—on a national holiday, when legal documents cannot be filed.

Second, the vote to separate the city from the county failed. City residents just barely voted yes (11,878 to 11,525), and county residents voted no (2,617 to 848).

Then there was a recount—after a judge in the Missouri Court of Appeals threw out ballots that showed partially erased yes votes replaced with nos. According to the St. Louis Globe-Democrat, election officials admitted they’d “stuffed in bogus votes by the handful, swore to false returns and by every device of perjury, corruption and rascality did all that lay in their power to convert the election into a shameless farce.” They said they’d been directed to falsify the count by politicians (in both city and county) who feared they’d lose power if the measure passed. The politicians at fault were not indicted, but the court did direct that the ballots be recounted. The new tally flipped the outcome to victory by a margin of 1,253.

And with that inauspicious beginning, city and county separated.


All of this shows that election rigging isn't new but also that it has disastrous consequences.

The City and the County would both be better off if the Great Divorce had never happened.



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24978 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted April 11, 2024 10:29 AMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by h2oys:
Please bear in mind there is a huge difference between St Louis City and St Louis County.

...

Please don't stay away from the counties of St. Louis, St Charles, etc. We are normal folk and would love to have you visit.

Indeed, I still have family in & around Webster Groves and O'Fallon, nice but, definitely separated from the City of.
 
Posts: 15279 | Location: Wine Country | Registered: September 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
thin skin can't win
Picture of Georgeair
posted April 11, 2024 10:30 AMHide Post
We stopped in there 3 years ago on our way to Chicago. Holy shit what a sketchy place - spidey sense was on high vibrato.....



You only have integrity once. - imprezaguy02

 
Posts: 12898 | Location: Madison, MS | Registered: December 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
E Plebmnista; Norcom, Forcom, Perfectumum.
Picture of OneWheelDrive
posted April 11, 2024 01:15 PMHide Post
"St. Louis's current boundaries were established in 1876, when voters approved separation from St Louis County and establishment of a home rule charter. St. Louis was the nation's first home rule city, but unlike most, it was separated from any county. Baltimore also is a similarly divided metropolis."

This is how it started.


================================================
Ultron: "You're unbearably naive."
Vision: "Well, I was born yesterday."
 
Posts: 4833 | Location: St. Louis, Mo | Registered: March 23, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted April 11, 2024 01:46 PMHide Post
quote:
It never should have happened in 1875:

But unfortunately, it can't be "solved" by a City-County merger, or the County "absorbing" the City.
1. The City has very few Republicans. So, the County (which is leaning Democrat) would have no chance of ever having Republican leadership if it absorbed the City. So... flight would continue out of the County.
2. The City has enormous debt due mostly to an ill-timed and stupid airport expansion.
3. The stupid City earnings tax.



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24978 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Never miss an opportunity
to be Batman!
Picture of jsbcody
posted April 11, 2024 08:35 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by selogic:
I guess at some point the Feds will give them a grant to revitalize downtown and we all know how that usually works out .


And about 18 months to 2 years AFTER that, half of the St. Louis City Board of Alderman will be indicted, charged and, convicted for embezzlement or corruption for steering the money to friends and family......It happens every single time the City gets money from the Feds. You would think that they would learn to hide it better but the Alderman are too stupid to learn.
 
Posts: 4120 | Location: St.Louis County MO | Registered: October 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Ripley
posted April 11, 2024 10:50 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by selogic:
..revitalize downtown and we all know how that usually works out .


Past history should be a clue. Almost four decades ago, a full downtown block was used to create the St. Louis center, a multi-level shopping mall sandwiched between the two major downtown department stores (Stix and Famous?), each of them also a full city block. Downtown renaissance!

The Center was impressive to be sure but the usual suspects killed it pretty quickly with jewelry swiping and the like.




Set the controls for the heart of the Sun.
 
Posts: 8677 | Location: Flown-over country | Registered: December 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Saluki
posted April 12, 2024 08:38 AMHide Post
Delivered groceries to a 7-11 downtown around 0100 in the late 90’s. I vividly remember the store mgr. holding both the door and a pistol as we ran the freight in. I’ve seen some crazy shit but that took the cake. Watched as a body was dumped on the I-270 bridge, didn’t have time to get her over the guard rails I guess. They struggled a bit and hauled ass.

I was happier with Detroit deliveries saw less scary shit there.


----------The weather is here I wish you were beautiful----------
 
Posts: 5272 | Location: southern Mn | Registered: February 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Unmanned Writer
Picture of LS1 GTO
posted April 12, 2024 08:49 AMHide Post
Think of this…. The voters which have continued to perpetuate the problem have also moved to cities which are safer and, presumably, decided they will vote to make their "new" city more like the place they abandoned.






Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.



"If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers

The definition of the words we used, carry a meaning of their own...



 
Posts: 14280 | Location: It was Lat: 33.xxxx Lon: 44.xxxx now it's CA :( | Registered: March 22, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted April 12, 2024 08:57 AMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
Think of this…. The voters which have continued to perpetuate the problem have also moved to cities which are safer and, presumably, decided they will vote to make their "new" city more like the place they abandoned.

That's what happened to North St. Louis County.
The County is being destroyed by the Democrats who have moved out of the City.



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24978 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted April 18, 2024 08:35 AMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
The last Republican Mayor of St. Louis, Aloys P. Kaufmann, was elected in 1945. Since 1949 through the present, St. Louis has had nothing but Democrat Mayors, so for the last 75 years straight!

Which also coincides with the enactment of the City earnings tax, which is 1% of gross income, right off the top, if you live OR work in the City of St. Louis. That's when people AND businesses started moving out...

But what if you live in the County, and USED TO work in the City, but your company shut down during Covid and now you work remote?

Well, the City still wants to tax you...
BUT, there's a lawsuit against the City and the State legislature wants to put an end to it... so further chaos:

ST. LOUIS, Mo. (First Alert 4) - City of St. Louis leaders unveiled the fiscal 2025 budget Wednesday, which includes losses for some city employees.

During the Board of Estimate and Apportionment Wednesday, Mayor Tishaura Jones, Board of Alderman President Megan Green and Comptroller Darlene Green discussed the proposed $1.3 billion budget, which is almost the same as 2024′s budget.

Officials cited the proposed $580 million general fund budget, which includes $26 million that will be set aside as a contingency plan. The $26 million represents the estimated amount the city could lose if lawmakers in Jefferson City pass a law excluding remote workers--who work for St. Louis companies--but live outside of the city limits from paying the city’s 1% earnings tax.

People who work and or live in the City of St. Louis pay a 1% earnings tax. The contingency money results in some city employees not receiving 3% raises.

“There’s been this looming doomsday kind of situation of the City of St. Louis losing the earnings tax,” St. Louis Alderman Rasheen Aldridge told First Alert 4. “Being a former representative, I’m glad that we’re taking precaution, but I’m also very hopeful that this bill won’t get done.”

Aldridge hopes city employees won’t leave for new jobs because of the 3% pay increase the city plans to withhold for the time being.

“I think it’s critical to be able to retain and keep our employees here at the City of St. Louis as we have an age problem with people retiring out, and people feel like they’re not getting paid what they need to get paid,” he said.

During Wednesday’s budget meeting, Budget Director Paul Payne said it’s possible the workers can receive their 3% raises this fiscal year depending on pending litigation regarding remote workers suing the city over remote work during the pandemic and if the Jefferson City bill fails.

https://www.firstalert4.com/20...earnings-tax-losses/



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24978 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A day late, and
a dollar short
Picture of Warhorse
posted April 18, 2024 08:40 AMHide Post
On a somewhat related note, and I don't remember his forum handle, but whatever happened to our member who was a St. Louis police officer?


____________________________
NRA Life Member, Annual Member GOA, MGO Annual Member
 
Posts: 13731 | Location: Michigan | Registered: July 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lawyers, Guns
and Money
Picture of chellim1
posted April 18, 2024 08:41 AMHide Post
KevinCW. St. Louis County police officer. Haven't seen him around lately...



"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor
 
Posts: 24978 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: April 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
would not care
to elaborate
Picture of sse
posted April 18, 2024 09:29 AMHide Post
Never spent any time there, but it is a once great American icon, and it won't be propped up by suburbia, just the opposite.
 
Posts: 3076 | Location: USA | Registered: June 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted April 18, 2024 09:39 AMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jsbcody:
And about 18 months to 2 years AFTER that, half of the St. Louis City Board of Alderman will be indicted, charged and, convicted for embezzlement or corruption for steering the money to friends and family......It happens every single time the City gets money from the Feds. You would think that they would learn to hide it better but the Alderman are too stupid to learn.

The city got something like 700million when the Rams moved back to California and no one seems to know where or what that will be spent on.

The city leadership is the problem and that will never change. If you talk to anyone who lives in the city St.Louis is in the middle of a massive comeback and it’s better than it has been in 25 years so I’m not quite sure of its true stature. The people that live there would be laughing at all the people calling a scary place because of something they saw many years ago.
 
Posts: 4070 | Registered: January 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
bigger government
= smaller citizen
Picture of Veeper
posted April 18, 2024 10:28 AMHide Post
quote:
If you talk to anyone who lives in the city St.Louis is in the middle of a massive comeback and it’s better than it has been in 25 years so I’m not quite sure of its true stature


Like Michigan. "In 5 years, you're going to be blown away...." Even now, state leaders tout how awesome Michigan is while they strangle businesses and people flee to more prosperous and free states.




“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it.”—H.L. Mencken
 
Posts: 9185 | Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
posted April 18, 2024 10:31 AMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 1s1k:
If you talk to anyone who lives in the city St.Louis is in the middle of a massive comeback and it’s better than it has been in 25 years so I’m not quite sure of its true stature. The people that live there would be laughing at all the people calling a scary place because of something they saw many years ago.
 
Posts: 110289 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gone but Together Again.
Dad & Uncle
Picture of h2oys
posted April 18, 2024 11:32 AMHide Post
quote:


The city leadership is the problem and that will never change. If you talk to anyone who lives in the city St.Louis is in the middle of a massive comeback and it’s better than it has been in 25 years so I’m not quite sure of its true stature. The people that live there would be laughing at all the people calling a scary place because of something they saw many years ago.


As a lifelong resident of St Louis, I completely agree leadership is horrid. But crime is awful. These are the situations I have first-hand knowledge of all of which took place in the City of St Louis:

1) Good friends Cherokee was stolen.

a) His stolen vehicle was driven 80 mph on city streets and almost killed the occupants of a U-Haul they hit.

b) the kids that stole it were not prosecuted even though he wanted to prosecute

2) the place where our air rifle/pistol club met, on South Jefferson, had a fenced in parking lot behind the building

a) on multiple occasions cars were vandalized, broken into, etc.

b) one time an adult "dropped off" about 8 minors who ran into the building to steal anything while we were IN the building

c) another time we were shooting, one of our members went outside to retrieve an Enfield he had assembled from parts to show another member. While outside he noticed motion in the parking lot. He opened his trunk, fixed the bayonet since he had no ammo, and found the 2 minors who had been attempting to steal a car. He marched them into the building at bayonet point, and we called the police. The veteran Sergeant essentially told me nothing would happen and admitted the 14-year-old was teaching the 12-year-old how to steal cars.

d) the men's choir met the same nights as us. The "young" ~70-year-old drove the frail +80-year-old to practice. When they left to go home, 2 minors robbed them at gun point in the lot. They threw the +80-year-old from the seat in the van down to the ground, pistol whipped him hard enough to leave part of the broken pistol grip behind on the ground.

e) it was not unusual to find empty pistol and/or rifle cartridges in the parking lot

f) the "locals" always cut holes in all corners of the fence. Why? They could run up the open driveway to the rear parking lot, escape through the holes in the fence, and thus the pursuing polic in their car were stuck.

I could go on and note all these things took place in the city within the last 10 years.
 
Posts: 3869 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: November 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted April 18, 2024 01:15 PMHide Post
quote:
Originally posted by h2oys:
quote:


The city leadership is the problem and that will never change. If you talk to anyone who lives in the city St.Louis is in the middle of a massive comeback and it’s better than it has been in 25 years so I’m not quite sure of its true stature. The people that live there would be laughing at all the people calling a scary place because of something they saw many years ago.


As a lifelong resident of St Louis, I completely agree leadership is horrid. But crime is awful. These are the situations I have first-hand knowledge of all of which took place in the City of St Louis:

1) Good friends Cherokee was stolen.

a) His stolen vehicle was driven 80 mph on city streets and almost killed the occupants of a U-Haul they hit.

b) the kids that stole it were not prosecuted even though he wanted to prosecute

2) the place where our air rifle/pistol club met, on South Jefferson, had a fenced in parking lot behind the building

a) on multiple occasions cars were vandalized, broken into, etc.

b) one time an adult "dropped off" about 8 minors who ran into the building to steal anything while we were IN the building

c) another time we were shooting, one of our members went outside to retrieve an Enfield he had assembled from parts to show another member. While outside he noticed motion in the parking lot. He opened his trunk, fixed the bayonet since he had no ammo, and found the 2 minors who had been attempting to steal a car. He marched them into the building at bayonet point, and we called the police. The veteran Sergeant essentially told me nothing would happen and admitted the 14-year-old was teaching the 12-year-old how to steal cars.

d) the men's choir met the same nights as us. The "young" ~70-year-old drove the frail +80-year-old to practice. When they left to go home, 2 minors robbed them at gun point in the lot. They threw the +80-year-old from the seat in the van down to the ground, pistol whipped him hard enough to leave part of the broken pistol grip behind on the ground.

e) it was not unusual to find empty pistol and/or rifle cartridges in the parking lot

f) the "locals" always cut holes in all corners of the fence. Why? They could run up the open driveway to the rear parking lot, escape through the holes in the fence, and thus the pursuing polic in their car were stuck.

I could go on and note all these things took place in the city within the last 10 years.


I agree with you. I worked right off Washington for many years so I know about the city of St. Louis more than most other than the people who live there. I would never spend any time after dark near where I worked for sure.


St. Louis city is a very unique place compared to most cities in the U.S. When you talk about the dangers of the city everyone’s mind goes to the downtown/riverfront area. The people who love the city and are seeing the changes are never near that area and like areas around Forest park, the central west end, the grove, etc.


To me it’s just not a desirable city as a whole. No one wants to be in the downtown hub area of the city that is what most people think of when hearing the word city. The city areas that are desirable are essentially big neighborhoods that are for the most part not that walkable and are considered city but are no where near the “downtown” portion of the city that everyone is afraid of and usually talking about.
 
Posts: 4070 | Registered: January 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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