We're pretty much there already.

quote:

Originally posted by Fla. Jim:
Yep by all means bring back the opium den’s . Unless we remember we will repeat.
Link

<snip gigantic picture>


During the heyday of the Old West drugs were pretty common and legal. The Chinese introduced opium when they came to America to build railroad lines. Drugs were not always used to get high, but to relieve pain.

The most popular painkillers were whiskey, morphine, opium, and laudanum. These could be purchased over the counter at any drugstore. Morphine was the most common narcotic on the frontier. It was first extracted in 1804 and was the first narcotic derived from a natural plant. It remains one of the most powerful pain relievers because it acts directly on the central nervous system. It’s also one of the most addictive. Too large a dose can be deadly. Commercial marketing began in the 1820s. After the invention of the hypodermic needle in 1853 its use expanded.

Morphine was hard to make and difficult to obtain so opium became the recreational drug of choice in the West for a century.

Prior to 1909 there were no restrictions on its import or use. It became a cure for morphine addiction. Opium dens operated in the Chinese section of town. They featured private rooms, couches, beds and even prostitutes

The solution is to let all the junkies OD. Once they’re gone and the market starts to thin out a bit the problem will eventually solve itself.

These people are self-destructive so why get in the way?

^^^ y’all do understand that the Harrison act to prohibit all that stuff was based on race. Opium was targeted at the Chinese, weed and heroin was targeted at the Blacks, and weed targeted with the Mexicans. The only intoxicant allowed was white man’s booze.

Booze has done more harm to this country than opioids ever. How many innocent people are fucked up permanently or dead because of drunk drivers?

Anyone remember prohibition; how much public will did it take to pass that?

How successful was it?

Turns out it’s a spiritual problem; not substances.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
The solution is to let all the junkies OD. Once they’re gone and the market starts to thin out a bit the problem will eventually solve itself.

These people are self-destructive so why get in the way?

So, you don’t have any loved ones under the age of 40 either? No children?

How about someone goes through a case of shingles real bad and gets hooked on their pain meds? They seek relief from the street… They should die in your world?

No compassion or fight for the poisoning of America?

AMF to you too.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
I would agree to this with ONE stipulation....NARCAN is NEVER to be used in ANY self-induced drug overdose situation. Wanna do the yam-yam?? Pay the price. No "get out of jail free" cards.

Sounds harsh, but the consequences of deviant behavior MUST be enforced at some point. Just sayin'.....

I think you’ve completely misread the fentanyl poisoning being the number one cause of death of men between 18 and 40. Kids as young is 12 years older ordering this on Instagram. They should die?

All because Brandon won’t callout China or NarcoCartels e.g. is compromised with his son?

Let’s hope you never have kids or grandchildren.

I believe you're trying to engage me in the wrong debate. Nowhere in the OP's article were statistics regarding Fentanyl abuse by 12 year olds discussed. Your obtuse argument is noble, but doesn't refute the intent of my statement. Thanks for trying to engage, though. Have a great day!! I'll go make that appointment for medical castration so I don't have those kids of which you speak...

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
I would agree to this with ONE stipulation....NARCAN is NEVER to be used in ANY self-induced drug overdose situation. Wanna do the yam-yam?? Pay the price. No "get out of jail free" cards.

Sounds harsh, but the consequences of deviant behavior MUST be enforced at some point. Just sayin'.....

I think you’ve completely misread the fentanyl poisoning being the number one cause of death of men between 18 and 40. Kids as young is 12 years older ordering this on Instagram. They should die?

All because Brandon won’t callout China or NarcoCartels e.g. is compromised with his son?

Let’s hope you never have kids or grandchildren.

I believe you're trying to engage me in the wrong debate. Nowhere in the OP's article were statistics regarding Fentanyl abuse by 12 year olds discussed. Your obtuse argument is noble, but doesn't refute the intent of my statement. Thanks for trying to engage, though. Have a great day!! I'll go make an appointment for medical castration so I don't have those kids of which you speak...

Thank you. I’d like to see the test results six weeks after the vasectomy please.

Your attitude alone stinks about letting people die.

Clearly you won’t fight for all Americans against this BS. But then again, it takes real courage.

Let’s be painfully honest here… No one gives a shit because half of these deaths are homeless. Homeless are everywhere these days but their pain/death means nothing, despite that many are our brother veterans; much less just humans.

Y’all rail about abortion all day long… But you’re quite happy to let people self terminate on the other end because of shitty government policies. Well done. I’m sure you’re proud of your beliefs.

Having seen many people recover from pure hell your attitude just makes me sad.

^^^^^^^
HAHAHAHAHA!!! You're gonna talk to ME about "real courage". You don't know a damned thing about me, sir.

Since you're stricken with diarrhea of the mouth, I'll let you have ALL the last words...

Take care!

OK, guys

Oregon's attempt was a failure.

All this will do is require massive amounts of taxpayer dollars for failed rehab.

Portland, Oregon is a hell hole. But it’s not a single variable problem. Except maybe for their leadership.

It’s not like a bunch of new drug suddenly showed up folks… People don’t start using drugs because it’s legal. Net new users is inconsequential.


The problem is already there… Now it’s in the public eye.

Anyone remember the movie "Traffic"?

Good movie about the top end of the narco-trade. Well, there's this quote between the HMFIC in charge of drugs here in the States and his counterpart in Mexico-

"Robert Wakefield: What are your policies towards treatment of addiction?

- General Arturo Salazar: Treatment of addiction? Addicts treat themselves. They overdose and then there's one less to worry about."

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
Y’all rail about abortion all day long… But you’re quite happy to let people self terminate on the other end because of shitty government policies. Well done. I’m sure you’re proud of your beliefs.

Apple and oranges IMO. There is quite a difference between protecting pure innocent life that has no say in the matter and that of those who's adult choices landed them where they are.

I do agree, though, that simply saying, "Let 'em die. It's a self correcting problem" is not the correct moral choice here. There has to be an incentive, other than death, to persuade people to make other choices. Legalization is NOT the answer. It will be disastrous for the individual and for society.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:

Booze has done more harm to this country than opioids ever. How many innocent people are fucked up permanently or dead because of drunk drivers?

"Booze has done more harm . . ."

Would that be because alcohol is legal and condoned by our society, probably used by a lot more people?

I do not know the numbers, not arguing your point, I'm just posing the question.

Something that I have observed, very limited knowledge here on my part, but the few hard drug users I have known do not tend to drive while under the influence, whereas I have seen many people who do drink and drive.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:
Oregon's attempt was a failure.

All this will do is require massive amounts of taxpayer dollars for failed rehab.

yes, Oregon's Measure 110 is a total failure. the number of drugged out people laying in the streets is unreal. The amount of open drug use in the city parks is unreal.

The amount of stuff that the druggies steal to support their habit is unreal. Catalytic convertors are disappearing off parked cars at an unreal rate. Glass everywhere on the ground from smashed windows on cars.

it's far worse than what is being reported.

Published property crime rates are steady ONLY BECAUSE NOBODY EVEN BOTHERS TO REPORT THESE CRIMES ANY LONGER. There's just no point in reporting it, and the agencies don't make it easy to file a report, so they get to say that property crime is steady. great system

if you want to report that your car got busted into, be prepared for a 45 minute wait on hold.

I believe the "moral" choice is to stay the fuck out of other people's lives and let them pursue their happiness whatever that looks like to them. I'll do the same for me.
Just make it so that if someone under the influence stumbles upon my property I can wax the mofo with impunity.

Look, there are absolutely no easy answers to this. I say this as a criminal defense attorney who worked as a prosecutor for 15 years and works as a part time judge. I have been working in the criminal justice system since 1995.

1) You cannot force people to go to treatment. You can put them in jail, where they may or may not get clean. And I say "may not" because don't kid yourselves, guards make money off of helping inmates smuggle contraband into the jail, and even without guard help, inmates are resourceful because many who are in jail want the "out" that drugs provide.

2) If you have never seen or experienced the absolute power that alcohol and other drugs (here I'm talking about everything except marijuana and mushrooms which I'll cover in #3) have on people (and I'm not talking about taking them, I'm talking about seeing the effects FIRST HAND AND UP CLOSE, then YOU KNOW NOTHING. You are just as able to opine on this issue as the average leftist who has only seen guns on TV and KNOWS THAT GUNS ARE BAD. You can have opinions, but you know that adage. You really can't offer answers.

3) Marijuana and psyllium mushrooms are interesting because it's a very different thing. Much "better" than alcohol, but still a very impactful and affecting thing. It's kind of in a league of it's own. Really should be studied a ton more because what they are capable of, and their relative safety is really unknown. But in this, I'm of the opinion that if you can own a gun, you can be an adult and figure this out too. Like alcohol, which is way worse for you by far.

4) Comparing any fantastically different justice system (like South Korea's) to ours and saying "Let's do that!" is just flat out unworkable. You might as well advocate for magic unicorns to wish everyone happy as a policy. And if South Korea is such a paradise, GO THERE. I personally haven't been there, but have no desire too. I've been to a lot of places, no place escapes addiction. Some cultures just can hide it, or move that addiction to something socially acceptable to that culture, but there isn't anywhere not touched by this. And remember, if the place is small and close knit, they just hide it better from outsiders.

5) Wishing all junkies to die is also something you should think about. I'd be willing to bet everything I own that in most people's circle of friends and family, someone is addicted or was addicted to something. It's just that prevelent. And you can't tell because people hide it, until they can't, which might be for a long time depending on resources and exact addiction. So the person you wish dead might be someone you don't want to live without.

6) And addiction comes in all ages, sizes, walks of life, colors, and sexes. It is just something built into some people.

So, the upshot: this is a huge problem that needs to be discussed as rationally as possible, probably with a lot of different experiments. In my opinion, if incarceration worked, the US would be drug free. Do I want drugs available over the counter to all (or everyone over age 18, or 21 or whatever)? Not right now, but I could discuss options. Yes, drugs can kill people, but so can my LTT 1301. I think if I can be trusted with my shotgun, I can be trusted to do some thinking for myself, at least subject to some regulations that should be discussed and evaluated.

We've lost a massive number of liberties in the name of the war on drugs. Thanks to no knock raids, numerous people have been killed by selecting the wrong door to kick.

The war on drugs has resulted in literally nobody who wants drugs being unable to locate drugs.

The WoD has, like prohibition of alcohol, created a huge organized crime/smuggling industry. With the organized crime obviously comes violence.

Attacking items in high demand, like drugs (and alcohol) from the supply side will virtually always end in failure, as the tighter the supply, the higher the prices. The higher the prices, the more theft and other crimes users need to commit to buy.

Depending on how they handle the rest of the story, there may not be a huge overall change.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
Y’all rail about abortion all day long… But you’re quite happy to let people self terminate on the other end because of shitty government policies. Well done. I’m sure you’re proud of your beliefs.

Apple and oranges IMO. There is quite a difference between protecting pure innocent life that has no say in the matter and that of those who's adult choices landed them where they are.

I do agree, though, that simply saying, "Let 'em die. It's a self correcting problem" is not the correct moral choice here. There has to be an incentive, other than death, to persuade people to make other choices. Legalization is NOT the answer. It will be disastrous for the individual and for society.

So no one here has ever fucked up majorly? No one here needed help; ever? I find that laughable.

All humans need redemption. We are born, we suffer loss, and we seek redemption. Only the details are different.

If you can’t fathom that… I question your humanity deeply.

So only innocent life is worth fighting for… Interesting phenomenon.

I wonder how God thinks about that?

It seems you only read the first part of my post.

I'm agreeing with you, just pointing out that the comparison is flawed.

Apologies for not editing your post thoroughly.

I’m also speaking to more people than just you Gus.

I take human life seriously.

I just don’t think most people thought this through. Or why it’s worse. Or even worse now.

Hold the dying boy in your hands with blue lips sometimes…

Then decide whether you’re going to give that Narcan or not. Even knowing they’re going to be angry and afraid when they wake.