Arc,
Thank you very much for what you have written. Would that things could change and people who need it can get help without the worries that they must carry which make things even worse.

OMC, understood what you were trying to get across and agree that with how things are, it is an extra burden.

Let's hope that perceptions can change and folks can find a way out of that easy-to-fall-into hole...

In addition to the other points made above, there are many careers where the slightest hint of mental issues is a permanent disqualifier. How many people who are on the brink are going to express their thoughts if the slightest hint of an issue will disqualify them from their career? When seeking the help they may need will result in a loss of financial security and stability for their family? When they know trying to fix the problem will likely make their circumstances even worse?

That's not to say that truly unstable people shouldn't be in some positions, but blanket disqualification for seeking help or taking a drug that controls your condition is a travesty.

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Originally posted by arcwelder76:

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Originally posted by kz1000:

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Originally posted by ensigmatic:

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Originally posted by kz1000:
David C. Soka, 51, of Austerlitz was identified as the victim, police said.

He wasn't the "victim." He was the perpetrator. The train's engineer and the people who knew and loved the suicide are the true victims.

Agreed.

Well, you're both wrong.

Guys, the idea that someone who commits suicide is malicious or weak, needs to stop.

Firstly, because obviously they are a victim. Of what, we don't get to know exactly. However healthy people don't commit suicide.

The main reason, however, to knock off this naked anger towards someone who commits suicide, is to prevent more suicides. There is a steep societal stigma attached to suicide, and the easy answer is "there should be." Well, no.

The way you prevent suicide is by talking about it. If someone feels a deep sense of shame and believes there will be a steep price for even mentioning their thoughts of suicide, they may never share these thoughts before attempting suicide.

The correct answer is that everyone is a victim in a suicide. Though really, beyond the family and friends as well as the crew of that engine, no one else I'd call a victim.

Lets not be overly dramatic, if you're on a train and it's delayed because of a suicide or other incident, you're inconvenienced and you have a grim story to tell the guys at work.

Considering that 2/3 of annual "gun deaths" are suicide, the best way to bring that number down is giving people the chance to talk about suicidal thoughts or depression. So they can be known to those who would help them and get treatment.

Labeling anyone who commits suicide as selfish, cowardly, malicious or weak, is the easiest and least productive way forward. If you're interested in the mental well being of others, or reducing suicides, anyway. If you just want to feel morally superior to someone who chooses to end their life, carry on with the "he was the perpetrator" mindset.

I wouldn't be mad at him as a suicide, but it is legitimate to be mad at him for his choice of method. It put others at risk and interfered with their lives.

quote:

In addition to the other points made above, there are many careers where the slightest hint of mental issues is a permanent disqualifier. How many people who are on the brink are going to express their thoughts if the slightest hint of an issue will disqualify them from their career? When seeking the help they may need will result in a loss of financial security and stability for their family? When they know trying to fix the problem will likely make their circumstances even worse?

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This is SLOWLY changing. However, security clearances and advancement in the military are two areas where problems remain. Substance abuse issues are a problem as well. However, there are plenty of people who do not seek appropriate care because of some mistaken belief that it will harm their career. Oftentimes their boss is aware of the performance issues and would welcome the employee seeking professional help.

People kill themselves for lots of different reasons. Sometimes it is accidental. Women attempt suicide much more than men, but men are more successful in completion. Very few people are like Richard Cory.

My first cop job, I was working overnights and came across a train stopped on the tracks cutting right through the middle of downtown just before 3AM. It was an odd sight, and I instantly felt a pit in my stomach over why they were stopped.


Sure enough, they broadcast a train/pedestrian collision. Found the guy caught up under the train. He had been dragged 200+ feet, but was actually intact, aside from a degloving injury to his left arm. He had been stripped of his clothing as he was dragged.

The conductor on the train was almost home, and was going to celebrate his birthday. It was the second pedestrian he had hit at the same intersection. This one ended up being a suicide, as evidenced by the dash camera footage.

The investigators for the railroad remarked how clean it had all been, and said when they have these cases on rural stretches of track, they often find teeth, fingers, toes, etc. for MILES around the site.

It boils down to this.

Are you interested in reducing deaths, or moral absolutes?

I'm _literally_ dead serious.

Suicide can never be completely eliminated. Why? Because mental illness is mercurial, and a free person can take their own life.

We are all, biological robots hovering in a hormonal soup, inside a bone machine. Whether you believe in a soul, or not, you are still subject to the conditions of your biology. Biology, affects psychology. Cue the Bruce Jenner example.

Hey, guys.

We all feel the pressures of society, masculinity, and this new business of the attach on masculinity. And more. The avenues to self hatred and despair are many.

Sunlight cures many things. Truth defends itself. Let yourself out of the prison you believe others have made, but you maintain.

Do you want to end your life? Have you thought about it? Guess what, you're normal.

Do you need someone to talk to? You can talk to me. I don't promise to talk you out of killing yourself. Only to being a rational sounding board. I don't actually care about you, but I'd like to help.

At this point in my life, I've lost too many friends to suicide. A number to overdoses that could have been but who knows. I've been there myself, and I have to say that the reason I always resisted, was because it would prove the haters right.

I'm by no means a perfect person, but my programming means I will fight. I'm an anomaly in that sense, among people who have experienced depression and suicidal thoughts.

No one among us, can ever be inside the mind of another person, even if they share everything with us.

If you consider yourself a member of the "firearms community" or whatever you'd like to call it, I STRONGLY recommend you make yourself emotionally available to the pain of other firearms owners. No one gives a SHIT about suicides nationally, and gun owners are increasingly demonized.

For those of us in need of support, this is bad and getting worse. We need to be open to listen, because it will prevent suicide, and perhaps mass shootings.

So, anyway, if you want to talk to someone, email me. I'm not going to jerk you off though. I'll give it to you straight.

After what I’ve been through the last nine months I don’t judge people anymore. You never know what people are going through or how much one can handle.

And Mrs tac reminded me of the sad case of one of our local RAF base policemen, who climbed the safety fence of a road-over-rail bridge in our local town, just where the express trains coming up from London hit 140mph, and was seen RUNNING down the track at the oncoming train.

A week or so before Christmas, 1986. He left behind a wife and children, but no note.

Again, he left his family behind, with no reason given.

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Originally posted by arcwelder76:

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Originally posted by OMCHamlin:

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Originally posted by arcwelder76:
The way you prevent suicide is by talking about it. If someone feels a deep sense of shame and believes there will be a steep price for even mentioning their thoughts of suicide, they may never share these thoughts before attempting suicide.

You mean like... depressed gun owners that do not simply fear, but know without a doubt that if they talk to someone about being depressed (or worse thoughts), they will immediately be "red flagged" for their "own safety"?
Because a guys hobby, that may be important to him (no, I mean really important, in his mind, at least), should be immediately and permanently negated because he was going through a rough patch in his life.
One of his "sources of joy", banished because he shared too much? Like that?
That's what a lot of gun guys fret over whenever they realize they have a problem. They MUST keep it their problem.
Alone...

This is a real concern, red flag laws. Badly written laws help no one, and can be used by anti-gunners.

Your contention that gun owners should remain silent and alone is no solution as well as dangerous.

A gun owner can find another gun owner to talk to. There is always someone out there. No one is alone, but dark thoughts can make it feel that way.

Bottling up these feelings is the wrong direction.

You seem to be conflating two separate things.

I have nothing but sympathy for people in a state where they are feeling suicidal thoughts. I'll always be there for anyone feeling that way. Key thing to remember is, you are not alone.

I have nothing but disdain, bordering on scorn for people who actually KILL THEMSELVES. Any remaining sympathy then is for those left behind.

Those things are different.