What a shitty way to go.


STOCKPORT — A Columbia County man killed after being struck by a train north of the city of Hudson Tuesday morning died in an apparent suicide, State Police said.

David C. Soka, 51, of Austerlitz was identified as the victim, police said.
A northbound Adirondack Train No. 69 from New York City to Montreal struck Soka near the Stockport trestle around Station Road sometime about 10:30 a.m. There were no injuries to the 125 passengers or crew members aboard the train.
Tracks in both directions were closed while police investigated and were reopened at 12:45 p.m., an Amtrak spokeswoman said.
State Police said they were aided by the Stockport and Stottville Fire Departments, Amtrak Police Department, Columbia County Sheriff's Office and Amtrak National Railroad Passenger Corporation.
Amtrak said about 2,000 people are killed or injured in grade crossing or trespassing incidents nationwide each year.



What amazes me, out of 170 in my graduating class (1985), he is only the 3rd death. One was killed in the Lockerbie bombing, another had a heart attack and now his suicide.

Yes, low rate of death in your class. Someone from my HS class jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge when he was 50, and had been planning it for years. He did some LSD in college, I wonder if that was part of the problem. He graduated college as a science major, was intelligent, but developed some sort of addiction as an adult.

quote:

Originally posted by kz1000:
David C. Soka, 51, of Austerlitz was identified as the victim, police said.

He wasn't the "victim." He was the perpetrator. The train's engineer and the people who knew and loved the suicide are the true victims.

His brain was probably mushed before he had a chance to feel anything.

I used to commute from NJ to NYC. The station I used was on Amtrack's Northeast Corridor line, which NJ Transit shared. The Amtrack DC to NYC Metroliners would come screaming through there at top speed (guessing somewhere around 100 MPH.) If anyone got hit by that, they be nothing but goop instantly.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by kz1000:
David C. Soka, 51, of Austerlitz was identified as the victim, police said.

He wasn't the "victim." He was the perpetrator. The train's engineer and the people who knew and loved the suicide are the true victims.

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by kz1000:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by kz1000:
David C. Soka, 51, of Austerlitz was identified as the victim, police said.

He wasn't the "victim." He was the perpetrator. The train's engineer and the people who knew and loved the suicide are the true victims.

Agreed.

Well, you're both wrong.

Guys, the idea that someone who commits suicide is malicious or weak, needs to stop.

Firstly, because obviously they are a victim. Of what, we don't get to know exactly. However healthy people don't commit suicide.

The main reason, however, to knock off this naked anger towards someone who commits suicide, is to prevent more suicides. There is a steep societal stigma attached to suicide, and the easy answer is "there should be." Well, no.

The way you prevent suicide is by talking about it. If someone feels a deep sense of shame and believes there will be a steep price for even mentioning their thoughts of suicide, they may never share these thoughts before attempting suicide.

The correct answer is that everyone is a victim in a suicide. Though really, beyond the family and friends as well as the crew of that engine, no one else I'd call a victim.

Lets not be overly dramatic, if you're on a train and it's delayed because of a suicide or other incident, you're inconvenienced and you have a grim story to tell the guys at work.

Considering that 2/3 of annual "gun deaths" are suicide, the best way to bring that number down is giving people the chance to talk about suicidal thoughts or depression. So they can be known to those who would help them and get treatment.

Labeling anyone who commits suicide as selfish, cowardly, malicious or weak, is the easiest and least productive way forward. If you're interested in the mental well being of others, or reducing suicides, anyway. If you just want to feel morally superior to someone who chooses to end their life, carry on with the "he was the perpetrator" mindset.

quote:

The way you prevent suicide is by talking about it. If someone feels a deep sense of shame and believes there will be a steep price for even mentioning their thoughts of suicide, they may never share these thoughts before attempting suicide.

I read what you are writing, but what about the suicide right out of a clear blue sky? A good family friend of ours, a couple of years ahead of me in the Army, but one I had somehow 'followed' around for years, killed himself one morning at work. Ostensibly drawing his service-issue pistol for a range session, he went to the unit bar, locked himself in the stockroom, taped the gun into his hand, set up a shaving mirror to get the angle right, and blew his brains out.

No warning, no hints, no signs of anything at all amiss, just bang and gone.

He left his wife of ten years, four lovely girls, the oldest of whom was our Goddaughter, and no note of explanation.

About six months later, it was found that he had been in debt to a bookie, and had been keeping it from his wife, phone-betting being illegal in Germany where we all lived at the time.

He had blown his life away, and that of his family, two brothers and a sister and parents, and all his friends who loved him, for a measly $7500.

quote:

I read what you are writing, but what about the suicide right out of a clear blue sky?

Nothing will prevent all of them as you've illustrated. I think what arc is proposing is lessening the stigma may prevent others even though it has no impact on your example. Simple as that.

Even more so, your friend's was only out of the clear blue sky to you. Had he felt he had other options available he might have first pursued them. Or at least have shared with someone what he was contemplating. See how that works?

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by kz1000:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by kz1000:
David C. Soka, 51, of Austerlitz was identified as the victim, police said.

He wasn't the "victim." He was the perpetrator. The train's engineer and the people who knew and loved the suicide are the true victims.

Agreed.

Well, you're both wrong.

Guys, the idea that someone who commits suicide is malicious or weak, needs to stop.

Firstly, because obviously they are a victim. Of what, we don't get to know exactly. However healthy people don't commit suicide.

The main reason, however, to knock off this naked anger towards someone who commits suicide, is to prevent more suicides. There is a steep societal stigma attached to suicide, and the easy answer is "there should be." Well, no.

The way you prevent suicide is by talking about it. If someone feels a deep sense of shame and believes there will be a steep price for even mentioning their thoughts of suicide, they may never share these thoughts before attempting suicide.

The correct answer is that everyone is a victim in a suicide. Though really, beyond the family and friends as well as the crew of that engine, no one else I'd call a victim.

Lets not be overly dramatic, if you're on a train and it's delayed because of a suicide or other incident, you're inconvenienced and you have a grim story to tell the guys at work.

Considering that 2/3 of annual "gun deaths" are suicide, the best way to bring that number down is giving people the chance to talk about suicidal thoughts or depression. So they can be known to those who would help them and get treatment.

Labeling anyone who commits suicide as selfish, cowardly, malicious or weak, is the easiest and least productive way forward. If you're interested in the mental well being of others, or reducing suicides, anyway. If you just want to feel morally superior to someone who chooses to end their life, carry on with the "he was the perpetrator" mindset.

First of all: OP, I'm sorry for your loss.

Second: Arc, thank you for this.

It bears repeating: do not judge until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That's all I'll say about that.

Thank you Arc. This is one of the most well written responses I have read regarding suicide.

quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley:

quote:

The way you prevent suicide is by talking about it. If someone feels a deep sense of shame and believes there will be a steep price for even mentioning their thoughts of suicide, they may never share these thoughts before attempting suicide.

I read what you are writing, but what about the suicide right out of a clear blue sky? A good family friend of ours, a couple of years ahead of me in the Army, but one I had somehow 'followed' around for years, killed himself one morning at work. Ostensibly drawing his service-issue pistol for a range session, he went to the unit bar, locked himself in the stockroom, taped the gun into his hand, set up a shaving mirror to get the angle right, and blew his brains out.

No warning, no hints, no signs of anything at all amiss, just bang and gone.

He left his wife of ten years, four lovely girls, the oldest of whom was our Goddaughter, and no note of explanation.

About six months later, it was found that he had been in debt to a bookie, and had been keeping it from his wife, phone-betting being illegal in Germany where we all lived at the time.

He had blown his life away, and that of his family, two brothers and a sister and parents, and all his friends who loved him, for a measly $7500.

The reason I'm talking about the stigma of mental illness, and telling others about suicide and depression, is precisely this.

The reason it can seem "out of the blue," is the same as the early responses in this thread vilifying the person who committed suicide. Mental Illness is seen as a sign of weakness or personal failure, and suicide is a taboo topic because only losers would consider it right? Wrong.

For those who have never experienced deep depression or thoughts of suicide, hey good for them. But when tropes like "It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem" come out, this demonstrates a deep lack of understanding of mental illness, if not outright disdain for it.

Should people kill themselves? No?

Well, who are we to judge, exactly?

If you can't take your own life, are you actually free?

Suicide and mental illness should be open topics of discussion, free from shame. Were that the case, I'll bet you a shiny nickel that we'd see fewer suicide attempts, and more people would get the help they need. Hell, more people would understand that depression is common, normal even.

Most suicides are men, a whole lot are middle aged white men. Because of the facade society has demanded of us.

When someone is depressed enough to consider suicide, the shame of that can be a downward spiral. When they hear friends or family talk like some have in this thread and before on the forum, it does the exact opposite of them opening up and seeking help. It drives their pain and shame deeper inside.

Our natural instinct is to not kill ourselves. We have evolved to be risk averse. If you think taking your own life is easy or something done lightly, you should admit what you don't know or understand.

If it is OK for each person to be flawed and human, and be open when they are having dark thoughts, then we would be saying "it came out of the blue" a lot less frequently, or indeed not at all, because that person got help.

During my paramedic training I accompanied an ER doc out to an ambulance so he could pronounce the corpse inside officially dead.

Standing next to the ambulance was its two-man crew who looked decidedly ill. The lead guy explained it was a suicide by train, where they had to wait several hours on a hot day to bag the corpse.

Climbing into the box the ER doc bangs his hand down on the body, and getting no response says "Pronounced at 1945" or something to that effect. He turns and looks me in the eye and says "If you are a ghoul, go ahead and open the bag."

I wasn't a ghoul.

The crew took the body to the morgue.

And life went on.

My father has been the engineer who has hit people committing suicide, I know there were at least two people - could be more over his career. I think people have the right to take their own lives but I wish it wouldn’t affect so many others in the process.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
His brain was probably mushed before he had a chance to feel anything.

I used to commute from NJ to NYC. The station I used was on Amtrack's Northeast Corridor line, which NJ Transit shared. The Amtrack DC to NYC Metroliners would come screaming through there at top speed (guessp instantly.

About 20 years ago some girl ran face first into one of those amtrak trains 1.5 miles south of metro-park Station her body parts was found for about 2 miles away and all along that distance.

quote:

Originally posted by OMCHamlin:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
The way you prevent suicide is by talking about it. If someone feels a deep sense of shame and believes there will be a steep price for even mentioning their thoughts of suicide, they may never share these thoughts before attempting suicide.

You mean like... depressed gun owners that do not simply fear, but know without a doubt that if they talk to someone about being depressed (or worse thoughts), they will immediately be "red flagged" for their "own safety"?
Because a guys hobby, that may be important to him (no, I mean really important, in his mind, at least), should be immediately and permanently negated because he was going through a rough patch in his life.
One of his "sources of joy", banished because he shared too much? Like that?
That's what a lot of gun guys fret over whenever they realize they have a problem. They MUST keep it their problem.
Alone...

This is a real concern, red flag laws. Badly written laws help no one, and can be used by anti-gunners.

Your contention that gun owners should remain silent and alone is no solution as well as dangerous.

A gun owner can find another gun owner to talk to. There is always someone out there. No one is alone, but dark thoughts can make it feel that way.

Bottling up these feelings is the wrong direction.

Three months ago, my brother in law took his own life. He had been having physical and mental issues for the last twenty years. His immediate family consisted of three grown children and six grandchildren, all whom he loved dearly. He understood the seriousness of his problems and had been consulting a psychiatrist and taking medication for his bipolar condition. So I can’t say his suicide came as a total surprise to me.

He went through a divorce in 2001 and never remarried, although he had a number of relationships with younger women, and many of them took advantage of him. His grandkids are too young to grasp what he did, but it has been difficult for me, as executor of his estate to see how it has affected his children. My wife has been devastated. I knew my BIL for a very long time, and so has my brother. It happened to be my brother who found him and called the local authorities.

The autopsy report found that he died from a high speed gunshot wound to the head. In spite of the difficulties his act has presented to me and many others, I refuse to judge him. I’ve done my best to help his family get through this situation. He was a great friend and he tried as best he could to be a great father and grandfather. Most of the memories we have of him are good ones. At the least, I firmly believe he is now at peace.

While I was on the cop job I had opportunities to speak with people threatening suicide. Most were really not going to do it, they wanted some attention or someone to talk to.

Also had the unfortunate experience to witness the aftermath of a dozen or so suicides. The majority pretty gory. Always wondered if blowing ones brains out at HOME ,so that the Family had to know that Dad or whoever, died HERE in whatever room...Was some sort of revenge towards the Family?

My wifes older Brother killed himself 30+ years ago. Leaving two young daughters 5 and 7 years old. They grew up , are both now married, happy and successful. I'm not a religious person but if there IS an afterlife and we meet people from our lives I may be in trouble as I'd like to kick his ass a few times for the sorrow he gave all of us. Abandoning those lovely girls and a loving Wife. All for no apparent reason.

quote:

Originally posted by FN in MT:
All for no apparent reason.

I think that this is the point Arc is trying to make.

I, too, have been to multiple suicide scenes, the last one being a guy who got into an argument with his wife and went upstairs and put a 30-30 under his chin and made a canoe out of his head. Brains and blood were dripping from the ceiling when we arrived.

At the time, I was angry. Angry at him and angry that I got called out at O'dark thirty to witness this mess.

Since that night, I have come to realize that true mental illness is nothing to mock. As anyone with depression can attest, more often than not these people don't even know that they are ill.

I long thought, like most, that suicide was the ultimate act of selfishness. I have since changed my thoughts on that. Sure, there are those who do it without much fore or hindsight, but the vast majority are in a deep depression, often undiagnosed, and see this as the only way out of it. The point they get to is something that we can't understand.

I don't often agree with Arc, but on this topic we are on the same page.

Thanks Arc for your words of wisdom.

A friend, who survived 30 years of law enforcement , recently shot himself during an argument with his wife, his recent injury left him unable to work and I’m sure that is what was the underlying issue and depression.
I won’t judge him he was a great person, just approached the problem with the wrong solution.

quote:

I won’t judge him he was a great person, just approached the problem with the wrong solution.

My brother's best friend, a friend of mine too, committed suicide shortly after college. He was a great guy and is still remembered fondly 25 years later. He was depressed over a relationship with a girlfriend that didn't work out, though no one really knew it at the time. Everyone had a relationship that went bad at one time or another... so no one thought it was a big deal. Wrong solution, but he is still remembered as a great guy.