I didn't want to pollute the Dune thread anymore so starting a new topic specific thread.

Per the comments in the thread, I tried again connecting a center channel to my setup (which I'll repeat here) but I'm not sure I appreciate it, for movies or for music. I have an Integra DTR-50.6 with front channels going to Paradigm floor standing speakers via an HK PA2400 amp. Klipsch bookshelf surrounds and a Klipsch 12" sub.

Music from CD or streamed. Movies are streamed.

Using the 4.1 setup, I get good sound and good imaging. I'm not really left wanting for movies or music (classical, jazz, vocals). But I believe that conceptually 5.1 should be better.

And yet, when I connect a center channel, at best it's parity to my 4.1. In some cases, it sounds a little more hollow or like a more shallow soundstage. Sounds "small" relatively speaking.

Granted, it's a relatively cheap speaker I had sitting around (Energy); small 2 way with 1" tweeter and 2" mid. But it fits on the same table on which the TV sits; just barely covers the bottom edge. I set crossover at both 80Hz and 200Hz - same experience.

I might consider a larger center but before doing so and spending the money - would it make a noticeable difference? And what about placement. I read that it's ideal to have the front and center tweeters at the same height. But for me, that puts the center in the middle of the TV. The TV is about optimally placed. A larger center would be placed about 10" above ground and way below (24"?) the front tweeters. Above the TV, the tweeter would be above our heads when seated and about 12" above the front tweeters.

For just dialog and some sound effects, I thought the small Energy would be sufficient. But it may be detracting actually. Should I continue to explore a larger center? Or is the Energy representative - if I don't like it, it's not really going to get better with a bigger center?

The timbre of a center-channel speaker has to match the timbre of the mains precisely, or the sound stage will be degraded and sounds transitioning across the sound stage will change oddly as they pass across the center.

What does that mean? I need to buy a front and center matched trio? Can't buy fronts and center separately?

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
What does that mean? I need to buy a front and center matched trio? Can't buy fronts and center separately?

Maybe.

I lucked-out with our CC speaker. Our mains were... fifteen years old (?) when I bought it. Luckily Paradigm made a recommended CC speaker for them. But, oddly, when I got it home and tested it I found it wasn't quite right. Went back to the store with some test tracks and told them I wanted to A/B it against the smaller version. Sure enough: The smaller CC speaker sounded right. Made the swap, brought it home. Perfect. The timbre of the larger CC speaker had been just a little deeper and more full than the mains.

That was back when my hearing was still very good and I could discriminate between very subtle nuances in sound systems Back when I could still hear the difference between vinyl pressed from a half-speed master and the "same" content on a CD player.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
What does that mean? I need to buy a front and center matched trio? Can't buy fronts and center separately?

Yes, L, C, R shoud have identical drivers.

I use Paradigm Reference Studio 60's for L/R, which a 2.5 way with a tweeter, midbass driver, bass driver. The matching center uses the same tweeter and a pair of the same midbass drivers. The rears are dipolar, again same drivers. Sub is a Pref Seismic 12.

A Denon 4300X powers all of it (except the sub). Denon uses Audyssey calibration and room correction which is absolutely essential to me. The only thing better is Anthem ARC. I used to be a "no EQ" all separates person that believed in proper speaker selection and room placement. Real life, the compromises in setting up a living room with a cathedral ceiling for surround sound, and hearing Audyssey "fix" all the room weirdness changed my mind.

My TV sits on a nice piece of furniture that can't fix the center speaker, so I have it hung above the TV. It's a bit too far out of plane with the LR tweeters but not much more so than if it was below the screen.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
What does that mean? I need to buy a front and center matched trio? Can't buy fronts and center separately?

Maybe not “the same”, but it needs to sound “the same”. As I’m sure you know different speakers, especially amongst different brands, sound exceedingly different in overall “tone” (timbre).

So if you have mains that are relatively mild and natural and laid back (subject terms, I know) but the center is a very aggressive and bright speaker, it’ll sound wonky.

Also, and perhaps I missed this, are you ensuring to change the mode on your receiver to a 5.1 decoder when using the center instead of the normal 4.1 you usually use?

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
The rears are dipolar, again same drivers.

Nitpick: If they're dipoles they're meant to be surrounds, mounted above and to either side of the listening position, firing forward and back, not rears. Rears are monopoles, mounted behind the listening area, shooting back toward the front.

It doesn't hurt for surrounds to closely-match the timbre of the mains, but it's not strictly necessary. It's even less important for the rears.

ok. thx.

i guess i'll give up getting a center for now. i have no idea what to get to match my fronts.

yea - i changed the receiver settings to enable the center. also adjusted the level to match the fronts. and also set the crossover to none, 80 and 200.

I guess the energy center is too different from my paradigm fronts. i can try a paradigm center (used) if i can find a reasonably priced used one.

Which paradigm fronts do you have? I got my center, rears, and the smaller version of my fronts on Ebay because they had already been discontinued. Depending on which you have, I can probably recommend a center, then you can stake out Ebay for one.

Konata, you should just stop playing around and be a man and order a full Dynaudio system.

You won’t regret it.

These are my L-C-R speakers.
And why yes, they are timbre matched.




https://www.paradigm.com/en/floorstanding/studio-100

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
The timbre of a center-channel speaker has to match the timbre of the mains precisely, or the sound stage will be degraded and sounds transitioning across the sound stage will change oddly as they pass across the center.

It is definitely optimum but there are plenty of ways to accomplish a competent, universal sound image with multiple speakers even different brands to get the timbre to match.
Also it is best to focus on installation and quality of the center channel as it does most all of the work (sound).
Surrounds are less important (Movie, TV Sound).
But yes matching the center to the surrounds among several other factors including location and all of the other electronic levels are important too but not a life or death factor for precise sound.

Does your integra have any room correction (it will use a mic & then auto-adjust Eq/levels). If so, you will need to re-run it with a center channel. If it knows you have a 4.1 & it sets up 'surround sound' for that, it is likely going to sound funky with 5.1.
If you move around the room & sound changes dramatically, it's the processing trying to compensate for a 'room' that has changed. Adding a speaker can have weird interactions.
You don't absolutely need identical L/C/R, but the more similar they are, the easier it is to match everything up. Also, your outboard amp will change the sound of L/R vs the Integra's onboard going to C. Probably minor, but something to consider.

getting it to "match" is certainly ideal but not required. There's bound to be several Paradigm options for a center that comes close to your speakers. Mount it below or above your TV, it's ok as long as you aim it towards the listening ears if possible. My left and right mains are mounted on the wall towards the height of the top of the TV, the center is on a shelf below the TV.

quote:

Originally posted by snidera:
Does your integra have any room correction (it will use a mic & then auto-adjust Eq/levels). If so, you will need to re-run it with a center channel. If it knows you have a 4.1 & it sets up 'surround sound' for that, it is likely going to sound funky with 5.1.
If you move around the room & sound changes dramatically, it's the processing trying to compensate for a 'room' that has changed. Adding a speaker can have weird interactions.
You don't absolutely need identical L/C/R, but the more similar they are, the easier it is to match everything up. Also, your outboard amp will change the sound of L/R vs the Integra's onboard going to C. Probably minor, but something to consider.

Agree ^^^ Using room correction software (either the built-in or 3rd party) with a mic is critical for proper sound imaging.
Don't know if it comes with a mic (it should) as the input is clearly on the front of the unit.

Thanks! I used the mic to adjust for room. I had a couple of different mics and apparently it matters which one I use for a given receiver. I think I figured out which one is correct.

Anyway, I set up the sound correction using the mic. I don't know how to explain this well - I think it sounds a little better. The sound stage seems a little more seamless.

However, the center still seems very timid relative to the fronts. I wonder if the sound correction will detract from the full capability of the fronts or if it will try to keep the fronts at full capability and optimize the center as best as it can. Which may not be enough given the differences between my front and center speakers.

I'll try to find a used Paradigm or Revel center and try again. Maybe Monitor Audio or Polk will be good enough too. Beggars can't be too choosy.

Just bought a Polk Audio S35 after reading about Center Speakers for months and considering my options in Argentina. Imports of everything and anything have vanished sunce late 2019 and it’s very hard to find what you want.

Size was a concern so my original options were the slim Klipsch 404c and the Polk S35.

The S35 shows as being the best choice for many reviewers and sellers i fiund in the US. Different than other reviews, the S35 seems to stand on its own instead of being referenced according matching series speakers. Stay with the brand they say for most, not on this case.

Just got a Yamaha A2A receiver, not my first choice and large 12” ESS AMT 13 speakers. Not the easiest or cheapest match for a center speakers.

Must say this center speaker does the trick much better than expected.

Not using my Yamaha woofer for now.
Very oleased. Surely you can find it chraper than the $500 i payed for mine.

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My Yamaha has built in corrction software.

Youtube is your friend.

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Ok. I picked up a clean cc-170. I’m still not sure I have the correct mic but I ran through the room correction process.

I’ll test out the new 5.1 config with music and movies over the few days. Music is mostly what I think will be challenging. Movies should be easier to be parity or better than 4.1.

Music? What are you using for a music source? Vinyl and (most) CDs will be stereo. SACDs can be multi-channel, as, of course, can DVDs and BDs. If the source is stereo, neither the CC speaker nor the surrounds will be used--unless you have the receiver synthesizing them.