Yea, that’s one reason why I’ve stuck with 4.1. It was tedious changing modes each time I switched between music and HT. Music in 5.1 seems kinda like mono. With this new center, hopefully music sounds like music even in 5.1.

Uhm... No. The receiver can't create what isn't there. It can fake it, but, as you've heard, that doesn't work well.

Does your receiver not automatically switch modes with the inputs? Even our "ancient" Yamaha does that. E.g.: When I switch to tuner, turntable, CD player, or cassette: It automatically switches to stereo. When I switch to a digital input, it automatically switches to multi-channel.

In stereo I can turn on effects, if I want. I never use them. IME they do more harm than good.

I’m not versed but afaik, the streaming device sends audio to the receiver. Receiver sees it as pcm, Dolby, THX or whatever. For movies that indicate pcm, I set the receiver to translate to Dolby. Problem is that this affects CDs as well.

So, unless I change settings as needed, I have a choice of some movies in stereo or music in 5.1; I opted for 4.1.

So, I’ll see how 5.1 does now.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I’m not versed but afaik, the streaming device sends audio to the receiver. Receiver sees it as pcm, Dolby, THX or whatever. For movies that indicate pcm, I set the receiver to translate to Dolby. Problem is that this affects CDs as well.

Reading between the lines: Would I be correct in guessing you're not using a separate CD player for CDs, but are instead using your DVD/BD player?

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
So, I’ll see how 5.1 does now.

Again: The receiver cannot create that which is not there, though it may try.

Stereo: Two discreet channels of sound
Dolby Surround: Two discreet channels of sound with two additional channels (front center, rear) matrix-encoded into the two stereo channels
Dolby and DTS Digital: 5+1 discreet digital channels

So, what does Dolby Pro Logic do with un-encoded stereo? According to Dolby, it:

quote:

Dolby Pro Logic II transforms traditional stereo audio into 5.1-channel surround sound for a seamless listening experience full of presence and depth.

Stereo to surround

Dolby® Pro Logic® II uses hidden audio cues that already exist in stereo content to create realistic surround sound with five full-range channels: Left, Right, Center, Left Surround, and Right Surround.

Ref: Dolby Pro Logic II

IOW: It attempts, through hardware, to create that which does not exist.

I look at it as similar to enlarging digital photos. That's done by adding pixels. The software doing the embiggening essentially guesses what colors and intensities the added pixels have to be.

UMIK-1 mics are inexpensive and designed for room correction software

Yes - I can't really afford to many discrete components so I use the bluray player as transport and have the receiver do the decode of CD data.

I understand that the receiver is converting the stereo data to a 5.1 format. That's what I don't like but it's annoying to keep switching modes between HT and CD content. It's why I haven't been using a center channel. It mucks with the sound quality and imaging since my fronts are better than the centers I've had.

Testing if the cc-170 is now sufficient.

Initial impressions: it's does provide a more robust sound (it's not timid like the smaller center I had). Not sure about soundstage and imaging yet. And not sure about sound quality yet. But it's different and better - again, need more testing to see if it's satisfactory.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Yea, that’s one reason why I’ve stuck with 4.1. It was tedious changing modes each time I switched between music and HT. Music in 5.1 seems kinda like mono. With this new center, hopefully music sounds like music even in 5.1.

When you are running standard 2-channel audio as from a turntable or CD then utilizing the center channel will disrupt the image.
I would think the AV unit programmability could discern the difference and play the appropriate speakers accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
When you are running standard 2-channel audio as from a turntable or CD then utilizing the center channel will disrupt the image.
I would think the AV unit programmability could discern the difference and play the appropriate speakers accordingly.

One would think and hope. Perhaps I'm not savvy enough. As far as I can tell, both Apple TV and bluray player send data as PCM (unless encoded? as Dolby). The receiver asks me what to do w/ PCM data, Dolby data, THX data. I set PCM to Dolby, Dolby to Dolby, THX to THX.

Problem is that both music and much of the HT content seem to be sending PCM. And the receiver doesn't / can't differentiate between PCM music or PCM movie. Hence I can either choose 5.1 music or stereo movie as the undesired piggyback off the setting.

If you really want to find out what your system can do, music-wise, get yourself a good DVD or BD.

I only have one: The Eagles: Hell Freezes Over. I just played it again after not having listened to it for years. Gave me goosebumps

The opening track, Hotel California is the best, IMO.

To give you an idea of just how much a proper CC speaker matters: I bumped the CC by a mere 1dB during the instrumental portion near the end. The sound stage closed-up noticeably. Turned it back down to 0dB, re-wound, and played that segment again. Big difference.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
When you are running standard 2-channel audio as from a turntable or CD then utilizing the center channel will disrupt the image.

This ^^^^^

So will the surrounds, because the receiver is guessing where to put stuff.

I thought about putting something I know is good--one of my traditional evaluation music sources, into my CD player, then into the DVD/BD player, to do an A/B comparison, but don't really feel like listening to more music, right now.

Plus: Last time I checked my ol' Denon CD player's drawer was getting cranky about opening. (Thing must be forty years old, by now.) I'm almost afraid to try it, for fear of finding it doesn't work anymore.

quote:

If you really want to find out what your system can do, music-wise, get yourself a good DVD or BD.

What makes the sound better is in the D>A conversion not so much with the mechanical part.
I rarely play my CD's in my DVD\CD player.
I rip them all and play them from my NAS and use a quality DAC.
THAT can make a huge difference.
However, that can get expensive and complicated.
You can also use an optical cable out of the CD\DVD to the AV Receiver and let the AVR do the DA Conversion, it may or may not be better or different.

I'm going to just listen for a few days, classical, jazz, vocals. It doesn't sound too bad right now.

I think the center is dominating a little in the conversion but was still acceptable while listening to a common orchestra piece. Instrument sections still imaged properly (again, I need to listen for sound quality more but the sound staging seems acceptable).

Also, I may need to work on the elevation a bit. I had to place the center above the TV so the drivers are about a foot or so above the front tweeter. I think if I angle the center downward a little more it may help (hopefully). If not, oh well.

For better or worse, I think I'll just live with it as-is. I think it'll be better for HT (presumably at least) and I'm getting too old to listen to music critically. Close enough is good enough.

I'm letting the AVR do all the decoding / conversions - it's newer and a more expensive unit. I suspect it has better DACs and stuff. Unless I get a new UHD blu ray player.....

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

If you really want to find out what your system can do, music-wise, get yourself a good DVD or BD.

What makes the sound better is in the D>A conversion not so much with the mechanical part.

I didn't put that quite right. What I meant was a good DVD or BD encoded in Dolby Digital or DTS, so he'd actually have discrete digital channels, rather than Dolby Pro Logic or Pro Logic II Making Stuff Up.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
You can also use an optical cable out of the CD\DVD to the AV Receiver and let the AVR do the DA Conversion, it may or may not be better or different.

I think he said that's what he's doing?

Anyway...

So I decided to give the ol' Denon CD player a go, after all. After persuading the drawer to come out the first time it seemed more-or-less reliable, so I tried it.

First thing I found is my remembery was faulty. My receiver does not switch between stereo and Dolby/DTS modes, automatically, based on the input selected.

The second thing I found was pretty much as I expected: While music didn't sound horrible with Dolby Pro Logic, it wasn't great, either. Sound stage lost dimension. Instruments and singers' voices both lost depth. Everything got "flatter."

It was kind of the same effect as when I bumped the CC speaker +1dB when listening to the DTS source, only far, far more pronounced. With the DTS source and bumping the CC channel I had to listen for the change. With the stereo source and Dolby Pro Logic I couldn't miss it.

Did not like.

konata88: If your receiver has Dolby Pro Logic II, perhaps it'll fare better than mine, which has the older Dolby Pro Logic. My guess is it still won't be great.

quote:

konata88: If your receiver has Dolby Pro Logic II, perhaps it'll fare better than mine, which has the older Dolby Pro Logic. My guess is it still won't be great.

I have set PCM conversion to Neo 6 THX Cinema (whatever that means) which seemed best for movies. So, that's what is being used for music as well

Again, it's not horrible like before. It's not ideal but it may be acceptable pending sound quality - center channel is replicating sound well. Which I assume it will since it's my trusted brand Paradigm (well, to the extent of what I paid for it - $50).

Summary: small center w/o room correction yielded unacceptable results. with room correction was better but still lacking (for both movies and music). paradigm decent center with room correction may be acceptable but not ideal (for music, for HT seems fine).

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
It's not ideal but it may be acceptable pending sound quality - center channel is replicating sound well. Which I assume it will since it's my trusted brand Paradigm

Ha! I did not realize, when you wrote:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Ok. I picked up a clean cc-170.

that the CC-170 was a Paradigm CC-170. Coincidentally: That's the exact same CC speaker I have

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Summary:...
paradigm decent center with room correction may be acceptable but not ideal (for music, for HT seems fine).

That mirrors my experience, and my CC-170 is matched fairly well to my mains.

Yea. My favorite is/was Vienna but could never afford them. Paradigm has been great for me - I like the sound and fit my rooms and good price (when purchased used). Like $50 for the cc-170 and $300-ish for the fronts. I've had KEFs, B&W, and the usual low/mid-fi stuff. Paradigms and Monitor Audio have sounded best to me (other than the Vienna).

So I was thinking (and based on suggestions in reviews) that the cc-170 would match well with my old paradigm fronts.

Anyway, no more budget for this unless something dies..... Need to make do w/ what I've got somehow. I'll play w/ speaker location a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Yea. My favorite is/was Vienna but could never afford them. Paradigm has been great for me - I like the sound ...

Never heard of Vienna before, but I've been out of the audio thing for quite a few years.

I came across my first Paradigm speakers, the mains, entirely by good fortune. I had a friend at the time who was an audio engineer. He had a recording studio in his home. Did mastering. I think he occasionally worked on films.

Anyway, one day he calls me up and asks "Weren't you looking for new speakers?" I was. He tells me about this pair of speakers a factory rep. had brought by. They were amazing, he claimed. "Ruler-flat from <here> to <there>." (I don't recall the numbers.) Claimed they were so good he nearly replaced his Klipsch Studio Monitors with them, but couldn't quite bring himself to doing it.

Offered them to me for what he paid for them, which was a pittance. I picked them up. Tried them. Was blown away. I had spent a lot of time, back then, listening to speakers. These were as good as anything I'd heard and better than most.

Needless to say: I bought them

Vienna Acoustics: http://www.vienna-acoustics.com/index.php

I haven't heard them in quite awhile; not even sure where they are sold now. But back when I was testing, they were similar but far superior in experience and price to the Paradigms. Even used today, they are much more expensive than I can afford. Not sure how they compare now but presumably relatively the same.

Lucky you got them cheaply. I keep looking for used ones at a decent price but they are hard to come by. They are generally a great value; I heard they are/were subsidized by the gov.

Paradigms aren't for everyone (just like tubes aren't for everyone). But they are a great value if you like how they sound. I was coming off KEFs at the time - in my opinion, they blow KEFs away. I've noticed I've never really cared for speakers from the UK (KEF, B&W, etc. Monitor Audio may be the only exception).

Not a bad price on this one:


https://www.newegg.com/klipsch...692/p/0S6-0033-001E9


I have the 250 and love it. The 440 should be equally good. Reference Premiere is a very balanced speaker not to be confused by the lower Reference line.

I bump my center channel up a couple notches.

Mine. https://www.newegg.com/klipsch...?Item=9SIA3JXCUM0798

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
When you are running standard 2-channel audio as from a turntable or CD then utilizing the center channel will disrupt the image.
I would think the AV unit programmability could discern the difference and play the appropriate speakers accordingly.

One would think and hope. Perhaps I'm not savvy enough. As far as I can tell, both Apple TV and bluray player send data as PCM (unless encoded? as Dolby). The receiver asks me what to do w/ PCM data, Dolby data, THX data. I set PCM to Dolby, Dolby to Dolby, THX to THX.

Problem is that both music and much of the HT content seem to be sending PCM. And the receiver doesn't / can't differentiate between PCM music or PCM movie. Hence I can either choose 5.1 music or stereo movie as the undesired piggyback off the setting.

Your Blu-ray player should not be converting to PCM, it should send un-decoded Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, and DTS-MA as a bitstream for the receiver to decode. Apple TV output depends on the generation of the ATV. Check the settings on both and see if you can change to bitstream or "Auto".

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
So, what does Dolby Pro Logic do with un-encoded stereo? According to Dolby, it:

quote:

Dolby Pro Logic II transforms traditional stereo audio into 5.1-channel surround sound for a seamless listening experience full of presence and depth.

Stereo to surround

Dolby® Pro Logic® II uses hidden audio cues that already exist in stereo content to create realistic surround sound with five full-range channels: Left, Right, Center, Left Surround, and Right Surround.

Ref: Dolby Pro Logic II

IOW: It attempts, through hardware, to create that which does not exist.

I look at it as similar to enlarging digital photos. That's done by adding pixels. The software doing the embiggening essentially guesses what colors and intensities the added pixels have to be.

The original analog Dolby Surround encodes the surround channel as L-R (Left minus Right). When you play back, the decoding is simple, passive analog filtering. You can do it just by wiring the rear surround speakers in series. But the surround signal is mono - same sound from both surround speakers.

Dolby Pro Logic is also analog, and uses L-R for the rears. The analog decoder chip steers all content that is equal in volume in both the Left and Right front channels to the center. Essentially everything that is mono goes to center.

Dolby Digital was the first codec with 5.1 discrete channels.

Pro Logic II does the same thing as Pro Logic but in the digital domain - mono to center, L-R to rears. It's not creating or synthesizing anything, just applying the codec. The results vary based on how the stereo source material was mixed.

Remember when stereo used to mean "Stereo" with voices and instruments panned pretty hard between left and right? This can generate some odd results to the listener if you are closer to the left or right speaker, or if there is only one channel running.

Now music is basically "super mono" meaning most content is present in both the left and right channels, compressed to hell, and maxed out on volume. 16 bit 44.1 KHz is capable of nearly 100 dB dynamic range but almost all commercial music has around 2 dB dynamic range just barely below max volume. Because "louder is better" and because it's more audible at all times when there is background noise. You don't have to ride the volume to hear the quiet parts. The stereo effect is created with digital signal processors (well, software in Pro Tools now) in the form of reverb and echo effects, for the most part.

So, the stereo soundstage if fake to begin with - created with 1's and 0's in a computer. Decoding that into 5.1 using Pro Logic II or Neos is just another step. If it sounds good fine, it not then don't use it.

I use Denon AVR's and the 4300X I'm using now (ca. 2016) for my main system has very good D/A conversion and overall processing. I leave it in 5.1 all the time and it sounds fine. But real 5.1 SACD's and Blu-ray audio sound outstanding.