quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
My instructor was an old retired guy whose flying license was signed by Orville Wright. He charged $10 per lesson, whether it was all afternoon cross country or show up and tell me to do a dozen touch and goes.

One day, I was busily preflighting the 152 when Bill drives up. After greetings, he asks, “Jimmy, what makes an airplane fly?”

I assume my best Martha King impersonation and start rattling on about lift, drag, thrust, etc. all that aerodynamic nonsense. After about ten minutes, he mercifully puts me out of his misery, saying, “Nahh, it’s money. If you don’t have any, the airplane won’t fly.”

Among his other gems were “Never land before you get to the airport.” And “Go potty every chance you get.”

Somewhat reminds me of my last instructor.
Guy was in his mid-70s & did it because he wanted to.

Charged $75/lesson, regardless of length or content.
From a quickie 45 minute ride to my first short 'cross-country' that took around 2 hours.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All what Dave said and to boot, if you go the degree route with ERAU, expect to have around $250,000.00 in student loans.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Are they in busy airspace, for which your son will be paying an hour's rental just to fly to the training area, and back? It may be worth your while to drive a bit farther to an area where training can be conducted right at the airfield.

I would disagree with guppy here. I learned in busy airspace at Houston's William P. Hobby airport back in the 90's; a major HUB for Southwest Airlines. I deemed it an EXTREMELY valuable lesson to "mix it up" with airline traffic and ATC by having to use proper radio calls and terminology to get me out to and back in from the practice area.

That experience on the radio and having to work with ATC probably saved me time and money when getting my instrument rating, as I didn't have to take time, either on the ground or in the air, to learn that terminology. If one is subject to "mic fright", they'll get over it quickly.

I don't recall more than 2 or 3 times that I was delayed getting off the ground when trying to depart Hobby. And I flew there from Private all the way through Commercial/Multi spanning 1991 thru 1998.

In summary, I would deem it money well spent to fly in and out of a busy terminal area from the "get-go". JMHO...

Nope, my experience is not at all like yours. I find it way more efficient to have a "home base" for instruction, that is a smaller airport. One that is not far from bigger ones is ideal.

Example: Our Little Airport is non-towered, Class G airspace, but there are a bunch of bigger, towered airports around us. That gives me the option of planning instruction either in a do-it-yourself environment, where there are virtually no traffic delays, or using any of the dozen or so more sophisticated airports when I want that training environment.

In particular, Daytona Beach (KDAB) is home to Embry-Riddle, and is a terrible airport in terms of delays. I wanted one of my instrument trainees to experience a no-gyro approach, so we filed for Daytona. No problem getting in, the approach controller was great. Getting out of there was another story. My trainee had filed IFR from Daytona to St. Augustine. He copied the clearance, read it back, told ground control that he was ready to go, and we then sat for 36 (yes, that's thirty-six) minutes holding short of the runway with the engine running while the tower operator was trying to sort things out and get us out of there.

Between airline and other IFR arrivals, and Embry-Riddle students, there was just no slot that tower could fit us into. Tower guy was exasperated, telling an ER student pilot that clearance to land on 7R did NOT mean that the student could just side-step and land on 7L in front of a jet that was whistling down the ILS for 7L.

After more than half-hour of waiting, we told ground that we would take a VFR departure just to get out of there, and pick up the IFR clearance once we were out of the vicinity.

I have had similar experiences in terms of IFR release at Orlando Executive, and worse yet at Essex County (Caldwell) NJ, where the only way I could get out of there in reasonable time was to depart VFR and snake my way past Teterboro and Newark traffic.

Bottom line: Yes, familiarization with larger airport operations is a necessary part of training, but you do not, and probably should not, need to be based at a busy airport for that training to take place. Not when you're paying by the hour for airplane and instructor time.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

economically

That word and airplanes are mutually exclusive.

It exists in the aviation world, but it's just different math...

My son laughed at me when I said I was going to tap into the braintrust on SigForum about how best to proceed - well he's not laughing now - thanks for all the great inputs.

To clarify something someone asked - he wants to be a commercial pilot.

We've visited ERAU and I appreciated the candid feedback.

We've also talked about Air Force ROTC and going that route to gain the experience and flight time.

Thanks again for all the advice!

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy

In summary, I would deem it money well spent to fly in and out of a busy terminal area from the "get-go". JMHO...

Nope, my experience is not at all like yours. I find it way more efficient to have a "home base" for instruction, that is a smaller airport. One that is not far from bigger ones is ideal.

I learned to fly at a busy terminal, but most of my flying now is between a terminal and small rural airports.

In my experience, there are up sides and down sides to both approaches. If you learn at a small airport the overall cost of the certificate is likely to be lower since you don't spend time waiting on the ground for traffic, or time flying from the busy terminal flying to a smaller airport to spend time in the pattern. After you learn to fly at the busy terminal, you have to spend some time flying in busy terminals getting more comfortable talking on the radio. If you base at a busy terminal, training cost will be higher but the student will get comfortable with busy environments from the beginning.

I'm not an instructor so I can't speak to the relative benefits, but I'm glad I trained in the busy terminal. When I went on to my instrument rating, the radio work was a piece of cake.

Good Luck!!! I just upgraded planes. It's a fun journey!

quote:

Originally posted by GrumpyMCO:
My son laughed at me when I said I was going to tap into the braintrust on SigForum about how best to proceed - well he's not laughing now - thanks for all the great inputs.

To clarify something someone asked - he wants to be a commercial pilot.

We've visited ERAU and I appreciated the candid feedback.

We've also talked about Air Force ROTC and going that route to gain the experience and flight time.

Thanks again for all the advice!

If that’s the case, then AFROTC is by far the way to go. Not only does Uncle Sam pay for the gas, but he gets a free education, a guaranteed job upon graduation, USAA benefits golfing, and entre to the brotherhood of veterans.

I’d go Navy, but AF isn’t that much worse.

From an instructor perspective, while there are benefits to operating in close concert with ATC, they cost more than they help in primary training, particularly at the early stages.

The hardest part of learning to fly is paying for it, and when one has to fly an hour to get to a practice area, and get back from one, which easily occurs at most busy terminal areas, that's an extra hour of aircraft rental and instructor pay that can add up to thousands over the course of training.

I've taught at some of the busiest places in the world, including the busiest GA runways in the country, from primary to turbine transition and airline operations, and while there are benefits at certain points in the training, it's usually only costly at the primary levels. At very busy fields, I've seen as much as 45 minute waits, too, particularly when the traffic saturation is so high that one can barely get a word in edge wise.

Personally, I'd take a student at a rural, uncontrolled airport any day, for primary flight training. As a pilot, I don't care what the airspace is; the student, however, already has plenty on his or her plate at the outset, and I'd rather see the student spend that hour of rental and expense doing landings, stalls, steep turns, ground reference, and other things that prepare him for solo, or move him toward certification.

Once the student has a handle on the flying end, introduction to airspace complexity isn't bad. It's just an unnecessary expense and not particularly beneficial early in the training.

Flying from a controlled airport that's not busy, with a practice area nearby, isn't a big issue, but a busy terminal area I'd avoid for most student training (especially primary training).

It's easy to get complacent with ATC oversight; students sometimes feel that ATC is looking for traffic for them, and that's a negative habit. A dangerous one, too.

Busy airspace, especially with a high student density (fly around north of Phoenix if you want to see high density) only increases the possibility of metal meeting in flight; I'm a lot happier to fly with less aircraft, given the choice.

quote:

Originally posted by GrumpyMCO:
We've visited ERAU and I appreciated the candid feedback.

We've also talked about Air Force ROTC and going that route to gain the experience and flight time.

I'll second JALLEN above...let the USAF pay for it. And I'll be extremely candid...don't touch ERAU with a 25 foot Festivus pole.

When I trained, I had several decades as a radio amateur. Talking on the radio, and listening, was as common and ordinary as brushing one’s teeth. A few pointers on what was being said and proper responses, and I was good to go.

For some people, using the radio is as difficult and daunting as learning to fly itself.

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by GrumpyMCO:
We've visited ERAU and I appreciated the candid feedback.

We've also talked about Air Force ROTC and going that route to gain the experience and flight time.

I'll second JALLEN above...let the USAF pay for it. And I'll be extremely candid...don't touch ERAU with a 25 foot Festivus pole.

A Third, fourth, and fifth here.

If becoming a pilot as a job is the goal, get the military to train you and pay you for it at the same time is by far the best way to go.

The time spent in the military will give the individual not only great flight experience, but great life experiences - then after time served or retirement, the airlines / flying jobs will be waiting.

Or you can grunt it out, building time as a CFI / CFII, then a decade of indentured servitude - ahem, I mean flying for the regional airlines before breaking into the majors for real money.

Thanks - these are exactly the same pro's that I've been telling him about Air Force ROTC. While I'm ex-Navy, his desire to go commercial made me think it would be easier to get training in multi-engine aircraft via the Airforce - but I'm a sub-guy - so I'm pretty ignorant about aviation...other than P-3's used to piss me off...

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by GrumpyMCO:
We've visited ERAU and I appreciated the candid feedback.

We've also talked about Air Force ROTC and going that route to gain the experience and flight time.

I'll second JALLEN above...let the USAF pay for it. And I'll be extremely candid...don't touch ERAU with a 25 foot Festivus pole.

A Third, fourth, and fifth here.

If becoming a pilot as a job is the goal, get the military to train you and pay you for it at the same time is by far the best way to go.

The time spent in the military will give the individual not only great flight experience, but great life experiences - then after time served or retirement, the airlines / flying jobs will be waiting.

Or you can grunt it out, building time as a CFI / CFII, then a decade of indentured servitude - ahem, I mean flying for the regional airlines before breaking into the majors for real money.

In my earlier reply, I carelessly omitted mention of the thanks of a grateful nation in my list of benefits of AFROTC.

As far as Navy vs AF, the Navy flies plenty of multi engine aircraft, transports, even bizjets. My former roommate in college, now retired from a long career at Delta, flew senior officers around on his last tour after several years flying E-1Bs off carriers. Another commercial pilot I knew in San Diego spent his reserve time flying a DC9 out to Wake Island every few weeks.

quote:

Originally posted by GrumpyMCO:
Thanks - these are exactly the same pro's that I've been telling him about Air Force ROTC. While I'm ex-Navy, his desire to go commercial made me think it would be easier to get training in multi-engine aircraft via the Airforce - but I'm a sub-guy - so I'm pretty ignorant about aviation...other than P-3's used to piss me off...

While Navy fixed wing pilots have no trouble getting into the airlines, the truth is over 50% of US Naval Aviators are helicopter pilots and that is just the way it is. Even then, as a helo bubba there is the initial fixed wing flight time and opportunities to training others in doing the same, but they do have a hard time getting fixed wing multi-engine time on the governments dime.

Even so, the airlines have started a helo track to get them spun up to fill pilot seats that need filling. And helo guy who really want to get into the airlines typically work their multi engine fixed wing flight time on the side so they are better prepared.

There are more multi-engine aircraft in the USAF, but there are still pitfalls to avoid - F16 / F35 are single engine and there is always the Unmanned Pilot track that you could get stuck into.

In the end he should choose what he thinks is best and then WORK HIS ASS OFF to ensure he has the best chance at getting what he wants.

And just to add some "real world" perspective...a LOT of military pilots that apply for the major carriers are asked to get some experience at the regionals before they "step up" to the major carrier. I have personally flown with ex-military pilots when they hired on, but I'm sure they're not with my regional carrier for more than a year before they make the transition over to the major of their choice.

Primary reason being, is the major carriers want them well-versed in CRM, FAR Part 121 operations, and a crew environment before they hire on at the major. Better the pilot learn it at the regional than potentially spend $$,$$$.$$ teaching them at the "major" level.

Cool story...flew with one guy that was retired USAF and USMC (pilot in both services) and to boot was a Marine One pilot under the Clinton administration; just flat-out an AWESOME individual!! I asked him what the hell he was doing at [my airline], and he said United and American both told him to get some Part 121 flight deck experience. He was gone in less than a year, though I don't know with which major carrier he finally went.

I don't have anything to offer on flight training. But I can say this. About 2 years ago I got a rifle and needed/wanted a rifle range to shoot at to get it sighted in while I was traveling to Orlando. V-Tail jumped in and offered to get me squared away at his range. I was able to enjoy a fine sammich at a local joint, had some good conversation, got him back on his pistol range, got sighted in myself, and had a tour of his flight operations at his hanger.

It was a day I wont forget. Not that I was in awe or anything, but he is what my dad would call the genuine article. You would be foolish not to take him up on his offer for a chat. One thing you find on this forum is folks who will set their lives to the side and help a member for seemingly no reason. Karma if you will, a good deed for another. He's that type.

The only piece of advice I can add that has not been covered here is Army Aviation. We have a good friend who went into the army, pursued the Warrant Officer route as a Rotary pilot. At nine years, she just went through multi-engine transition training for fixed wing assignments and is now flying some of the cool but obscure Army fixed wing aircraft.

Have to say, she lives a great life, loves the challenges and the Army and talks up this as a route to aviation when given a chance.

if your goal is to be a commercial pilot then I heartily agree that USAF ROTC is the way to go if thats even an option

I was in the aviation industry for a number of years (1983 to 1991) and I'd not heard any positive comments about ERAU in quite a while

their meal plan was derisively referred to as 'Empty Griddle' as a play on Embry Riddle

I've added another cent to the discussion so I am up to 3

Thanks for the kind words, Timmdogg.

You gonna be back this way any time soon?

More on the airline career path.

Don't ignore Navy, Marine and Coast Guard Aviation. They're a thing too, and might be easier to get into than Air Force. The airlines have no interest in helicopter time, so I'd pretty much ignore Army Aviation. There's not much there. That said, I'd only consider the military route if I felt the need to "serve my country." I might also do military if I only wanted SWA. Otherwise, I'd probably go the civilian route and concentrate on flow through programs.

Have a back up plan. He'll need to a Bachelor's Degree to get on with a major airline. I would strongly recommend that your son get his degree in anything OTHER than aviation. I would probably do something to do with coding or website design, both of would offer great opportunities for side hustles that could be done from a hotel room.

Military pilot selection is highly competitive. A lot of applicants, not very many who get a billet.

While some corporate jobs require a four year degree, most other jobs in aviation, other than major airlines, do not. If the goal is major airlines, then the four year degree is a box that needs to be checked, though airlines do not care about the discipline. Any accredited four year degree (or higher) will do.

Other than Army Aviator, commissions for all services will need a four year degree; to get to pilot training consider the four years, plus training, plus service commitment. If not remaining in the service, plan on about 12 years before being available to the civilian market. Upon completion of that time, depending on what one has flown and what one has done (and the amount), one may not be competitive. More experience is frequently needed.

Conversely, it takes a year or so to get through basic pilot certification through flight instructor, about a year to two years of instructing to get through 1,500 hours, and one is at a regional, flying 600-1000 hours annually. One can complete a four-years degree online while doing that work. At the end of the same 12 years, one has over 10,000 hours of experience, is operating as a captain at a regional or has already joined a major airline, and is doing quite well.

Become a military pilot because you have a desire to serve, because you get to do an incredible job and fly equipment that most only dream about doing, or for other reasons, but going military will not boost you to the head of the class. It will put you behind. Upon completion, you'll have an enviable training history, a well-recognized record, and a solid background...but you'll be entering the civilian workforce where others have been at it for a long time. This also means a considerable difference in seniority, which at the airlines is everything...and makes the difference in millions of dollars in terms of end-of career wages, retirement, etc.

Military flying will cover your flight training expenses, but you'll pay for it in years and service. You'll not regret it, but look at it critically to see why you want to do it; it's not the rapid springboard that some think. I frequently field requests from military aviators looking for their next step, many of whom are coming out with years of service and very little flight time to show for it. I would never discourage someone from going that route, so long as they understand what it is, and isn't...and that it's a lottery with a lot of applicants all wanting to play.