I am deeply, deeply asleep at 4:30 am but that's the time I need to wake up by. I've changed my bed time, don't eat or drink after 8 usually to avoid waking in the night etc. I don't snore, and have no indications of sleep apnea, have a great new bed, control the room temperature etc.

I feel more rested and have an easier time waking up at 6am if I've gone to bed at 1am that if I go to bed at 8,9 or 10 and try to wake up at 4. 4am is just not it for me.

Following.

I am somewhat an expert in sleep deprivation and changing sleep schedules.

My general advice is sleep when your body is tired. It knows. However, those on set schedules have a different sort of issue than me. There is only one reliable way I have ever found to change rhythm. You cannot go to bed earlier. You have to progressively go later and later until you work your way around the clock to a time that works for you. That is how I managed when I had to make a big body clock change.

On the other hand, you can just stay awake for 40+ or so hours and then fall into a semi coma, set your alarm to the time you want to start waking up and go from there. That also works...but it sucks...bad.

Interestingly enough, I have fallen into REM sleep in the 9 minutes of an alarm clock snooze period. I have had any number of long detailed dreams in that short space, so I can only assume that when my body needs to, it can fall into REM almost immediately.

Well if you find the answer, let me know. Ive been fighting this my entire career.

One thing you may try is an app called "Sleep Time". It monitors your sleep cycle through vibrations and movement you make during the night. (You set the phone on the bed near you.). When you set an alarm with it to wake, it monitors your cycle and will wake you up to :45 early if your cycle demands it.

I would HIGHLY recommend you stay away from OTC aids and even melatonin. Many of these disrupt the chemical balance in your system causing other issues.

I know this isnt much...but its all I have.

I don't take any medication, rarely any OTC, occasionally an Advil PM on the first night of the week.

As I said, I can sleep 3am to 6 or 7am and be fine.

I would have guessed that your body would adjust as needed, but apparently not.

My Dad worked a rotating shift for over 25 years. Eight hours for 7 days then rotating backwards for another cycle of 7 days. He got 4 days off after the completion of his 10pm-7am shift. He nearly always slept well, or at least when we kids didn't blow something up. He died in his 80's and never had any adverse effects as far as I know. Basically he died from a form of cancer probably caused by chemicals used to kill weeds when he was younger on the farm.

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:
I am somewhat an expert in sleep deprivation and changing sleep schedules.

Excuse me for chuckling, not because I don't believe you (I do) but because it fascinates me.

http://sleepyti.me

This is a calculator that you can put in the time you want to wake up and it will tell you what time you should fall asleep (it takes about 15 minutes lying in bed to fall asleep).

I've never personally used it but read an article about it so I bookmarked it.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:
I am somewhat an expert in sleep deprivation and changing sleep schedules.

Excuse me for chuckling, not because I don't believe you (I do) but because it fascinates me.

Probably the worst part of the job, and learning to deal with it is one of the most crucial skills.

The federal regulations for sleep sound good on paper, but in use are often worse than pointless. Just like so many things, one can be "legal" and in no way be "safe". Thankfully, fatigue reporting programs have become almost as big as safety reporting programs, though the crew scheduling departments tend only to see "legal" and "contractual", not "realistic".

Recent research has started to show that shift work and time zone hopping have a measurable ill effect on the body's ability to repair itself down to a genetic level.

Still in all though...it's a pretty cool gig. LOL

I know people that can't sleep past there normal wak up time. I can.

I don't have an issue after a nap.

Difficult but possible.
Drop room temperature for bed time, program back to normal for 4:30. Try a light alarm clock (Phillips & others make them) to simulate gradual sunrise/waking. Dim red glow at 4am to white at 4:30. May need to adjust time & amounts of caffeine & alcohol you drink. May need to adjust your exercise time. Get 15-20 minutes of sunlight between 10am-2pm.

mom worked mid-night to 8's for 28 years as a nurses aid,
she would tell you no way, not even close.

I worked 5 a.m. to 3's for nine years
( that was ten years ago , )

I would tell you the same thing, its very tough

and the older you are the tougher it gets

circadian rhythm can be a mess

The heat is set at 64 overnight and kicks up a few degrees about waking time, we have a fan for white noise. Good blinds so it's dark at night.

If I wake up at 2 or 3 am I feel fine but it seems pointless to be up that early. I generally get home around 6, some nights gym from 7-8 and then shower and bed. The workouts don't seem to affect my ability to go to sleep or stay asleep.

Maybe I could try waking up at 3 and staying up.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Riley,

Several years ago while I was having some insomnia, I watched a program at 3AM. It was on insomnia and given by a professor at UCLA. I found this lecture which I believe is the same one. Good research but it may take a little bit to get through all of it.

I'm going to try the link posted above sleepy time.me and use my Garmin watch as a sleep tracker and alarm. I like that it vibrates on alarm, it's much less startling.

I'll try and watch that UCLA program as well.

I went to sleep when sleepyti.me told me to. I woke up just before my alarm and I've felt great today. Maybe a fluke, I'll know tomorrow.

I was close on time but it was better. Maybe a fluke like you say.

quote:

Originally posted by wolffy88:
I went to sleep when sleepyti.me told me to. I woke up just before my alarm and I've felt great today. Maybe a fluke, I'll know tomorrow.

It is a helpful tool, but doesnt obviously replace sleep deficit. You need on average 7+ hours a night. If you dont, its cummulative. Im required every year tomcomplete a FAA training module on sleep and fatigue. Now mind you...everything in the lesson is totally ignored by the .feds own rules and the company...but I completeing the required training right??

On an average 4-day trip I cross 12 time zones. Acxording to the FAA's own studies, you need a full 24hrs to adjust to a SINGLE time zone change.

Its all such bullshit....

7+ hours? I have to chuckle at that. I actually do fairly well and get 6 or so. A cat nap helps, though there are different theories.

quote:

Originally posted by Riley:
7+ hours? I have to chuckle at that. I actually do fairly well and get 6 or so. A cat nap helps, though there are different theories.

Well I guess i balance you out in the averages since I am an 8+ sort of guy.