quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:
I think "platform familiarity" is probably a better descriptor of the problem than a shotgun being simpler than an AR.

Most people who have any familiarity at all with guns have probably shot a shotgun.

I was thinking about it, and from a controls standpoint, I don't think a pump shotgun is actually any simpler - it's just we've all used them so long we don't even think about it.

A pump shotgun has a trigger, safety, pump, slide release, and fixed magazine with loading gate.

An AR has a trigger, safety, charging handle, bolt release, and removable magazine and magazine release.

True. To someone unfamiliar with firearms, an AR is no more complicated than most semi-automatic handguns. It might have two more steps than a pump shotgun. It definitely has less recoil and as such putting follow up rounds on target should be easier. It will also be easier to put in long practice sessions in at the range. I don't think twice about 30 rounds with an AR, but 30 rounds of 1" slugs from a 590 is a different story.

This is why I rely on a pistol for HD. I have 10s of thousands of rounds shot with pistols (many many thousands with my specific bedside gun). I only have thousands of rounds with a rifle and 2,000 or less with my AR. I have a couple hundreds of shells fired.

I'm going to what I'm most comfortable with, my pistol. If the house is under siege, my pistol will get me to my AR in the next room over. I don't live in a van dame movie so I don't think I'll be engaging trained mercenaries attacking multiple points of entry in a coordinated attack. My M11-A1 will serve just fine, know it like the back of my hand.

I have a 10.5 AR for my HD gun. Its light enough to 1 hand if I need to grab doors or kids. Its small enough to keep slightly to the side if I'm just checking outside to see what that noise was. Theres pros and cons to everything and I imagine your house and property will change your needs.

I find that theres no comparison in ability to stop between pistols and rifles. Pistols are simply handier. Handy certainly has a place but it would be a very weird circumstance where I'd willingly run a pistol vs a rifle.

PCCs are neat and I like mine. In a pinch it would work but for the size I can run an AR pistol in a far more effective caliber. They are easy to suppress but I personally want to be loud if someone kicks my door in. YMMV of course.

Shotguns are certainly powerful but I think I find them in some interesting circumstances. I have a friend who leaves his wife a Rem 870 for HD. Its almost bigger than she is, she doesnt train with it at all and likely hasnt seen it in years. Its so far from their bedroom she'll have to pass any threat to get it. Shes scared of the recoil and I'd be shocked if she remembers how to operate it. Its the wrong gun for them and no matter what I do to try to change his mind on it its a SHOTGUN so its the last word in home defense. I know thats a bit of a rant but I'm hoping its a bit of a cautionary tale to some. The people you think are going to operate it have to know how to use it and be comfortable with it. If that doesnt work for someone small who doesnt like guns then you might have to find something that does. I think I'd run a shotgun if I was more concerned about animals. For people the punch is certainly there but it has a low capacity and long reload for what you get. It has its place but it doesnt replace an AR to me and I have a respectable amount of time on shotguns.

I find the AR pistol / carbine is light and quick and all you have to teach someone is ping pong paddle and safety or just safety depending on the set up. Theres lots of great ammo for it and its always being studied and advanced as a platform and with ammo. Its hard to argue against it for GP home defense.

If he's only interested in getting 1 firearm, I'd recommend a 12ga pump. Simple, reliable and effective.

I don't see AR's, especially short barrel AR's as the thing for a non shooter, non gun guy.


Having been through this with non-gun people, who suddenly needed a gun, even a pump shotgun can be a little tricky.

Why would someone have to be a “gun person” to operate an AR for home defense? It has a 30 rd magazine...all they have to do is flick thier thumb and sqeeze the trigger. Way easier than working a pump and it’s less ergonomic safety and higher recoil. Way easier to hit with than a handgun, the most difficult of all firearms to shoot well.

I’d advise that he ought to get some training with a pistol, a rifle, and a shotgun. I don’t think he should buy anything without training. I suspect that an AR is the best choice, but he should get some training with all three and decide what works best for him.

The AR is definitely a superior platform, but like Jesse/Skins2881, I have orders of magnitude more rounds through pistols, and especially DA/SA Sigs than I do ARs. I’d like to train and shoot with my ARs until I have the level of comfort I do with my P226 or P228, but I have trouble shooting and training with those as much as I’d like and I carry one or the other of those daily.

Your buddy is starting from scratch, he can start with an AR if that seems appropriate after training with one.

In a free state where he can run 20 round mags in a P226 or a Beretta, I can’t imagine choosing a revolver. I’m not up to speed on high caps for Glocks or M&Ps, but I’m sure he can get plenty of capacity there too if he prefers those.

I think he should either find a range with rentals and trainers or find a trainer who will rent students guns and try different things. Heck, he could try revolvers too, and if he likes those better go that way, but after he sees the difference between having teens of rounds in the gun how long it takes to load the two platforms.

I just don’t think he should choose a gun because people think it is “easy for non-gun guys”. He may find he enjoys the training and become a gun guy.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
I don't see AR's, especially short barrel AR's as the thing for a non shooter, non gun guy.


Having been through this with non-gun people, who suddenly needed a gun, even a pump shotgun can be a little tricky.

Yes they can. I shoot pumps, autos, and O/Us in clay sports, and in terms of simplicity for clay, the order from most simple to least is 1) O/U, 2) Auto, and 3) a Pump. Why a pump ? In a fast moving situation, it takes more PRACTICE with a pump, and in the clay sports with more than one bird in the air at a time, a Pump can take you out of the running. But I can't speak for Annie Oakley.

Running a pump at speed is tricky unless you have practice. It may be cheap and somewhat simple but if the time comes and he short shucks it, he’s gonna be up shit creek.

An AR/AR pistol with brace can be had for 300-400 bucks right now. Get him a few mags, light and even a red dot and tell him what he needs to know. Send him links to some good YouTube videos
On how to operate and maintain it.
This notion that ar’s are too complicated is pure bull shit.
He’s better off with 30 rounds than 5 or 6. And a shotgun at a real close distance like a bedroom or living room isn’t going to spread worth a damn anyway

I’m a ‘dog person’ currently out in SD with the Son prairie dogging, our 4 y/o German Shepherd is along. My wife went to MI, I try to not board if I don’t have to.

The dog has been fine, currently on the bed with me in a dog friendly cabin.

Unless a stranger comes prepared, they won’t want to deal with the average Shepherd if visiting & not invited. They require a commitment though, more than many are able to give.

If a person is clueless about firearms, they need training to use one.

quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
If a person is clueless about firearms, they need training to use one.

This kind of applies to dogs, too.

Any firearm is going to require some training. And I agree with member limblessbiff: An O/U shotgun is about as simple as they get. But two rounds and you're done.

For the situation the OP's friend is in I think an AR is the best bet. Hell, when I was in Basic Training the Army took a bunch of guys who'd never even seen a frackin' rifle IRL and had 'em up to speed with minimal, basic proficiency (that is: Could load, charge, shoot, reload, and clear) on an M16A1 in one training session. And those were full auto.

The biggest thing is perhaps the lack of recoil for a new shooter. Pleasant to shoot. Hell, just plain fun for most anybody. Will be more likely to shoot more/more often.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
I don't see AR's, especially short barrel AR's as the thing for a non shooter, non gun guy.


Having been through this with non-gun people, who suddenly needed a gun, even a pump shotgun can be a little tricky.

Yes they can. I shoot pumps, autos, and O/Us in clay sports, and in terms of simplicity for clay, the order from most simple to least is 1) O/U, 2) Auto, and 3) a Pump. Why a pump ? In a fast moving situation, it takes more PRACTICE with a pump, and in the clay sports with more than one bird in the air at a time, a Pump can take you out of the running. But I can't speak for Annie Oakley.

I continue to advocate a pump shotgun for novices for home defense. I continue to be concerned about over penetration with rifles inside a home. The shotgun is an awesome deterrent and a lot of people are familiar with shotguns vs. other platforms.

I agree that serious training is needed no matter what platform. We run a defensive shotgun course for armed professionals and even some of the experienced folks have trouble keeping the gun running when under stress.

Buckshot penetrates more than 5.56.

I wouldn't use birdshot for home defense.

Therefore, if you advocate based on possibility of over penetration, then you should be advocating for the AR.

My HD gun is my pump shotgun because my AR is bullet button neutered and only has 10 rounds in it's legal/non-shtf configuration.

Plenty of people short stroke a pump shotgun if they don't use it often.

It's not as mind-numbingly easy for non-gun people than you think.

Suppressed AR15 SBR here, for pest control of all varieties.

A suppressed PS90, with a 50 round magazine and a Five-seveN pistol to accompany it. No suppressor for the pistol though, it wasn't designed for them.

It's difficult to give more than a general answer to your question without more specifics, such as:

1. How familiar is your friend with firearms? If he is, what type is he more familiar (comfortable) with?

2. Where does he live? City or boondocks.

3. What is his financial situation? Can he afford to buy, and train, with whatever you suggest?

4. Does he have a family, kids?

5. What type of defense is he concerned about? Individual EDC type, or defend the home type, or combination of the two?

6. How serious is he about all this? Is willing to take the time to become proficient with whatever is decided on and is he aware of, and willing to, accept the responsibilities associated with firearms possession?

It is easy to sit at the computer and suggest this type of firearm or that type of firearm, but to do it right, you will need to tailor your suggestion to your friends wants, needs and capabilities.

I don't get the veneration of pump shotguns. Singe action (must be cocked for each shot), slow round by round loading. Low capacity. I hate to say it, but they're pretty obsolete. Would it work? Probably. Are there better choices? Yes. They're basically the equivalent of single action revolvers. Anyone suggesting this guy should get a Ruger Vanquero (modern SA revolver) for his HD gun?

If he gets any gun, he should get some training and then practice regularly. If he does that, and AR for a long HD gun, and an autoloading pistol of really any quality brand would work well.

First time gun owner, buy a hand gun first. World goes to shit, he can at least conceal the hand gun on his person as he barters for food at the local market. A rifle slung across the back gets noticed.

Second firearm? Rifle or shotgun, your choice.

I can teach someone with zero firearms experience to be proficient with an AR a lot easier and faster than a pistol or shotgun. A shotgun is a terrible choice unless they practice all the time and can handle the massive recoil and weight.
Pistols are for carrying when you can't bring a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Buckshot penetrates more than 5.56.

I wouldn't use birdshot for home defense.

Therefore, if you advocate based on possibility of over penetration, then you should be advocating for the AR.

My HD gun is my pump shotgun because my AR is bullet button neutered and only has 10 rounds in it's legal/non-shtf configuration.

Exactly. A good friend of mine HAD a roommate that had an ND with a 12 gauge, 00 buck. Went through an interior wall, an exterior wall, and peppered the house across the street which was thankfully a brick house. It did chip the brick a little bit, also barely missed the neighbors brand new car. A 12 gauge hits like a sledge hammer. Yes you can get #4 buck which won’t penetrate as much but it’s still a shot gun. There is a reason most police agencies have moved from the 12 gauge pump to the AR. It’s better, it’s easier, and it’s safer.