This news came out a few days ago but, after running a couple forum searches, I didn't see it mentioned.

Some news reports state that the decision has already been made, but this FOX report indicates the change is still under consideration.

I wasn't raised to say "sir" and "ma'am" by my parents but, starting in 10th grade, I started flying and also had a job around those that used those terms respectfully, including adults and veterans that I quickly came to respect, and "sir" and "ma'am" became a part of my everyday vocabulary.

I do recall that during one temporary Summer job in high school, my friend and I left the job to go on a quick lunch break to 7-11. Lunch time was busy for them, there was a long line waiting to pay behind me, and as I paid the middle-aged female clerk, I hurriedly and reflexively said "thank you sir", and immediately cringed at my mistake...but she quickly rectified the situation when she said " you're welcome ma'am."

I spent the rest of my Summer lunch breaks dodging her whenever I could.

My gut instinct is that this policy would be a change for the worse, as the terms "sir" and "ma'am" garner and enforce respect for superiors and recognition of his/ her seniority and accomplishments, but I'd be interested to hear from those who served in the military.

I'd imagine there are some LEOs that use these terms as well.

[Note: several hyperlinks and reader comments found at linked website article.]

====================

Marine Corps should ditch 'gender-specific' terms for drill instructors: report

Published December 21, 2022 5:25pm EST

The proposal is being considered but leaders within the Marine Corps have raised concerns

By Louis Casiano | Fox News

An academic report is recommending the U.S. Marine Corps get rid of "gender-specific salutations" for drill instructors.
The report, commissioned in 2020 by the Corps from the University of Pittsburgh, was completed in 2022. It notes that other military branches have made strides to "de-emphasize gender" by using other names.

"The Army, Navy, and Coast Guard effectively de-emphasize gender in an integrated environment," the 783-page report reads. "Instead of saying ‘ma’am’ or ‘sir,’ recruits in these Services refer to their drill instructors using their ranks or roles followed by their last names. Gendered identifiers prime recruits to think about or visually search for a drill instructor’s gender first, before their rank or role."

The proposal is being considered by Marine Corps leadership but some have concerns.


Chief of Staff for Marine Corps Training and Education Command, Col. Howard Hall shared his concerns during a Dec. 6 meeting with the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Services, the Military Times reported.

"Honestly, that’s not a quick fix. What are we inculcating in our young recruits that will or will not be reinforced when they graduate and enter the fleet Marine force?," he said. "So again, we want to avoid any quick-fix solutions that introduce perturbations down the line."

The report was part of an effort by the military branch to integrate boot camp. Until 2019, all female recruits were trained in a single battalion at Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island, South Carolina. Women now train at both Marine Corps boot camps, the other being the Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego, but training materials have been slow to catch up to that reality, the Military Times reported.

The report focuses on how the Maines Corps uplifts male Marines by using masculine language and allegedly ignoring female Marines. It found the PowerPoint slides from the San Diego recruiting depot used all male pronouns to describe leadership traits. "

"A leader who is confident in his decisions instills confidence in his Marines," one line read.

The study also found that female Marine drill instructors were sometimes treated as less important than their male counterparts. The authors suggested that getting rid of "sir" and "ma’am" in favor of the neutral "drill instructor" would help balance such behavior, the Times reported.

"Gender-neutral identifiers are an unambiguous, impartial way to circumvent these issues," the authors wrote. "Employing gender-neutral identifiers eliminates the possibility of misgendering drill instructors, which can unintentionally offend or cause discord. By teaching recruits to use gender-neutral identifiers for their drill instructors, Services underscore the importance of respecting authoritative figures regardless of gender."

Fox News Digital has reached out to the Marines Corps for comment.

Louis Casiano is a reporter for Fox News Digital. Story tips can be sent to louis.casiano@fox.com

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

"An academic report...commissioned in 2020 by the Corps from the University of Pittsburgh, was completed in 2022..."

I always ask the University of Pittsburgh for advice on military matters.

/sarcasm/

Judges too.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.c...-turbans-and-beards/

2 Sikhs can now enter Marine boot camp with turbans and beards

By Irene Loewenson
Friday, Dec 23

Two Sikh men who have been fighting grooming restrictions that they say violate their religious beliefs can finally ship off to boot camp, a panel of appeals judges decided Friday.

Judges J. Michelle Childs, Patricia Millett and Neomi Rao of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia granted a preliminary injunction that will allow plaintiffs Milaap Singh Chahal and Jaskirat Singh to go through recruit training with their Sikh articles of faith: unshorn hair, turbans, beards and steel bracelets.

The Marine Corps has said it would allow the men to wear the articles of faith with limitations once the 13 weeks of boot camp conclude.

The judges sent the case of a third plaintiff, Aekash Singh, back to the district court. Because Singh may have already postponed his plans to enlist until at least 2024, the judges were not sure if he was facing an immediate harm that they needed to redress with an injunction.

“With this injunction and remand of the District Court’s decision, our clients are finally out of the ‘legal limbo’ that has barred them from their careers of service for more than two years,” the Sikh Coalition’s Giselle Klapper, a lawyer for the plaintiffs, said in a statement Friday. “The simple truth is that articles of faith pose no barrier to effective job performance — not in the USMC, nor anywhere else across the public and private sectors.”

The Marine Corps has granted exceptions from its grooming standards to Sikhs who have made it through the 13 weeks of recruit training, though not in combat zones. But the Corps has maintained that exceptions for recruits would make it harder to instill in them a spirit of uniformity. That made it the only military branch that would not offer religious accommodations to Sikh recruits.

In the 40-page opinion written on behalf of the court, Millett, the most outwardly skeptical of the Marine Corps’ stance during a hearing on Nov. 29, cast doubt on that argument about uniformity. She noted that women, men with chronic razor burn, Naval Academy cadets (many of whom go on to be Marine leaders) and people with tattoos abide by varying grooming standards.

“[T]he Marine Corps has failed to demonstrate that denying Plaintiffs the same accommodations during boot camp that they would be given during later service in the Corps is the ‘least restrictive means’ of advancing its interest in developing unit cohesion and a team-oriented mindset,” Millett wrote, referring to the legal standard that the government must meet if it places restrictions on religious exercise.

The three would-be recruits filed a lawsuit against the Department of Defense in April. In August, a D.C. district court judge, Richard J. Leon, denied their request for a preliminary injunction.

Also a plaintiff in the broader lawsuit is Marine Capt. Sukhbir Singh Toor, who is seeking the right to wear his articles of faith while deployed. His case is still pending.

“This immediate relief opens the door for two of our clients to move forward in their lives and careers without rejecting their faith, and positively asserts the rights of the other two as these legal proceedings continue,” the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty’s Eric Baxter, a lawyer for the plaintiffs, said in a statement Friday.

The Justice Department, which is representing Defense and Marine Corps officials in the case, did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Over the past several months, it has not responded to Marine Corps Times requests for comment about the pending litigation.

I also was raised to respect elders with sir or ma’am before asking a question.
At 75, I still do ( but I’m older than most I talk to now.). Just being polite and manners to me.

There’s an old saying, “The inmates are running the asylum,” that seems to have almost daily applicability.

I'm absolutely speechless. I have no words as it's just insanity anymore.

Cdr Salamander articulates this quite well

quote:

Unless you live in a highly isolated environment where you don't spend too much time reading and understanding the nation you serve & live amongst others in the military in these co-ed quasi-monastic cloisters known as government quarters (yes, I'm looking at you DC GOFO community), you are well aware that the last place to look for any advice on issues of "gender" related issues is academia.
Only a fool would ask academia for advice here, or someone who was a true believer and wanted a club to beat the pagans with until they convert.

Maybe a bit of both.

Of course, just like in corporate America where the weakest senior leadership fears their HR department more than the board of directors or shareholders, most of the senior uniformed and civilian leadership fear no one more than the embedded commissars from the diversity industry that infect our N1/personnel shops from Millington to The Pentagon.

Especially over the last 20-years, the nomenklatura has been focused on nothing more than increasing the numbers of their co-religionists in GS/SES billets - it helps their either convert, promote, or destroy uniformed leadership who do or do not align with their diktat.

With the increasing numbers of these otherwise unemployable people - mostly from academia - absorbing billets and funding, their self-reinforcing power structures are making it almost impossible for all but the best bureaucratic irregular warfare experts to avoid, delay, or say "no" to their latest agenda item.

Like a well placed mine, they wait for the moment to be just right to make a recommendation to send money to their co-religionists to further support their evangelism.

Just another reminder this week, as it seems a story is breaking above the background noise days that has been around for a few years. Let's give it a quick review because it is just another example to reference in the future.

....

Maybe the new recruits will have better luck trying to call their DIs "asshole" now. LOL

As a US Army Field Artillery Drill Sgt. (early 1970"s) I demanded that the trainees address me as Drill Sgt. because as a Non Commissioned Officer I worked for a living and as a NCO my work made the officers look good ... A lot of the officers might have had the book learning but could not pour water out of a boot without written instructions.............................. drill sgt.

I remember getting my ass handed to me for saying "by your leave, sir" to a DI from 4th Platoon (females).

If my defense, she had her hair covered by the campaign cover, and was built just like the tiny DI from my platoon.

Oops

And the first and last words out of your filthy sewers will be sir. Do you maggots understand?

The Marine Corps is dying.

I’m torn, there were a lot of times while I was in the Marines that I intentionally called someone by their rank for the sole purpose of NOT addressing them as Sir or Ma’am.

It was juvenile and disrespectful of me to do so and done when I had no respect for that Marine. Mostly used on 2nd Lt. who had shown they had no clue.

I found myself doing the same thing when pronouns and identities became all the rage. Idk avoid that shit by addressing or referring to the person by name instead of their chosen pronoun dujour.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
I’m torn, there were a lot of times while I was in the Marines that I intentionally called someone by their rank for the sole purpose of NOT addressing them as Sir or Ma’am.

It was juvenile and disrespectful of me to do so and done when I had no respect for that Marine. Mostly used on 2nd Lt. who had shown they had no clue.

I did the same. Officers that I respected I happily addressed as sir or ma'am. Those I didn't were addressed by their rank. It was my own little passive aggressive dig.

To be fair, the Army has been doing this for... well... ever?

Drill Sergeant is Drill Sergeant regardless of gender. Never made sense to me why the Marines used SIR and MAMN for NCOs, especially given the "I'm not a sir I work for a living.".

quote:

Originally posted by Jester814:
To be fair, the Army has been doing this for... well... ever?

Really?

The British Army started recruiting Sikhs in 1860.

When did Sikhs begin to join the US Army?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve in PA:
The Marine Corps is dying.

Yes it is & perhaps it should.
Better to close up shop than to become something of an embarrassment to those who established the reputation of the Corps.


My .02¢

So, I get that live may not be as much of an issue, but would the Sikhs cut their hair if they become one?

Can they wear a gas mask and helmet?

This is all fine and dandy. But what happens if your DI decides to self identify as Supreme Galactic Overlord instead of Staff Sergeant? I pity the poor recruit that miss identifies the DI!

But we might have to lengthen training to accommodate the change from:
"Yes SIR!" to
"Yes Class Drill Instructor Gunny Sergeant Jones, United States Marine Corp!"

Drop and give me twenty...please.