quote:

The Feds will dump 10,000 Syrian "refugees" in Baltimore.

What else are they doing to improve the city?

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:....
I'm just saying that before we start talking about how horrible the prosecution is, and how innocent the accused are, we should wait to see the evidence....

And I'm just saying that with the dynamics in this case, none of the evidence can be trusted and none of the potential jurors can be trusted to deliver an impartial verdict.

quote:

And I'm just saying that with the dynamics in this case, none of the evidence can be trusted and none of the potential jurors can be trusted to deliver an impartial verdict.

But if there's actual evidence, then I trust them just fine to find them guilty. It seems that most are still operating on the assumption that all of these guys are 100% innocent. We have no idea if that's true.

For all we know they have statements from those directly involved or surveillance footage showing wrong doing. We won't know what evidence they have until they tell us. The Ferguson deal was pretty obvious because they were releasing information to the public the entire time. I haven't seen that in this case.

posting in case any one was interested

http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...-20150914-story.html

FOP seeks donations for officers in 'extremely lengthy' Freddie Gray case

Baltimore's police union asked Monday for donations to support the six officers charged in the arrest and death of Freddie Gray, saying the "extremely lengthy" legal process — including six separate trials — threatens to overwhelm the union's "distress fund," which is used to support officers in financial need.

"While the Lodge anticipates the ability to pay the required legal fees, we remain concerned about the Distress Fund that is being used to assist these officers with their living expenses," wrote Gene Ryan, president of the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 3, in an email to members that was also posted on the organization's website.

The distress fund, which has existed for years, has been tapped to support the officers in the Gray case — four of whom are not being paid pending the adjudication of their cases.

http://www.fop3.org/

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:...But if there's actual evidence, then I trust them just fine to find them guilty....

You have more confidence in the integrity of the people than I do. I have full confidence, in a case like this, that truth will be the first casualty.

It's not about real evidence against the officers. It's "their time" as Mosby has stated loudly and proudly; truth be damned.

quote:

Originally posted by Draal:
It's not about real evidence against the officers. It's "their time" as Mosby has stated loudly and proudly; truth be damned.

That needs a repeat.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Draal:
It's not about real evidence against the officers. It's "their time" as Mosby has stated loudly and proudly; truth be damned.


That needs a repeat.

I think this line of thought is very dangerous. You can't say "it's not about real evidence" when you don't even know what the real evidence is. This Mosby person could be the biggest anti-cop prosecutor ever in the history of prosecutors, but that doesn't matter if there is actual evidence that a crime occurred.

In the end you may be right. But it's only a guess at this point since none of us know what they do. We don't know if they have video footage, witnesses, or even statements from the other officers present. It's as if you guys are supporting letting these guys walk solely because we don't like those involved in their prosecution. I say we let them walk if they are not guilty. And we don't know if they're not guilty without seeing the evidence first.


How about two similar stories:

Two events happen approximately 1 month apart. Both result in suspect deaths and no injuries/death to officers involved.

Both events result in the arrest and substantial criminal charges of several people, some of whom do not appear to have been involved in any criminal acts.

Both prosecutions are filled with controversy. Prosecutors, Judges, and Grand Juries all have questionable ties, and have acted in questionable ways, or have questionable motives.

Both cases had prosecutors seeking gag orders, and in both cases the police and prosecution have been extremely tight lipped. We have very limited knowledge of what evidence they hold and how that applies to those charged.

One case involves the arrest of police officers, and the other bikers, but we don't hear a peep about the bikers.

My opinion is the same in both cases. I suspect that some parties in both groups acted inappropriately. Not all of them. Whether any of them acted criminally will be proven (or dis-proven) by the evidence (or lack thereof). We have an imperfect criminal justice system, but despite its flaws, is one of the best in the world. It doesn't always get things right, but I'm always willing to give it a chance to work before making the claims that they got things wrong.

I'm willing to wait for the evidence in both cases before I start throwing stones. I would hate to think that a prosecutor ruins somebody's life due to an agenda. I would also hate to think that a criminal escapes charges due to an agenda. I know both happen, but it's BS in either case.

A1abdj,
Did you watch the original press conference that Marilyn Mosby gave when she announced the charges ? Can you honestly say that isn’t a prosecutor pandering to the mob ?

There was wide spread consternation across the prosecutor community about the level of the charges, the scope of the charges, and the number of officers charged.
The medical examiner said that Gray died from a single impact to his head while he was in the van.
The examiner also said that Gray may have stood up in the van and then fallen.

Mosby has said the officers arrested Gray without cause, failed to secure him with a seatbelt, and failed to get Gray prompt medical attention after the injury.

Gray was arrested in one of the highest drug sale sections of Baltimore. The police had been directed to be aggressive in this area and decrease the illegal drug sales.

The policy of using seat belts in the van had been issued just 9 days before the incident. The surrounding Maryland counties did not even have seat belts in their vans.

Because of the prosecutor’s over charging, the Baltimore police have been afraid to make routine arrests. The Baltimore murder rate has dramatically increased after the police became less proactive because they are more afraid of the prosecutor than they are of the criminals.

Highly correlated to the actions of the Baltimore mayor and prosecutor, Baltimore burned and dozens of murders above the norm have occurred.
We saw lots of fabricated outrageous lies in the Michael Brown shooting. It was only the thoroughness and honesty of a fair minded prosecutor that kept Darren Wilson from being charged. Still, Wilson’s life was very negatively impacted.

Even if they are not convicted, the 6 Baltimore police officers will probably never fully recover from this. Do you think Baltimore will give each of them 6 million if they are found not guilty ?

Marilyn Mosby talked a lot about her proud family history of police work. But she didn’t tell us that they were fired because of things such as robbing drug dealers and using cocaine.

Billy Murphy is the Gray family lawyer that negotiated the 6 million dollar settlement. He was a political supporter of Mosby and a member of her transition team. Mosby was just elected last January, 3 months before Freddie Gray was arrested. She is a very inexperienced prosecutor.

On her very first day in the office, she dropped charges against a client of Billy Murphy’s law office.

It goes on and on. We saw a rush to charges and the charges look vastly over charged for a case where the prosecutor played to a rioting mob.

quote:

Did you watch the original press conference that Marilyn Mosby gave when she announced the charges ? Can you honestly say that isn’t a prosecutor pandering to the mob ?

Of course she's pandering. She's a politician. That's what they do. When we were dealing with Ferguson here locally, guess what all of the politicians were doing? Pandering. Some to different groups, but the exact same song and dance.

quote:

It goes on and on. We saw a rush to charges and the charges look vastly over charged for a case where the prosecutor played to a rioting mob.

You're commenting on how things look and not based any evidence. Why is it such a terrible thing to wait to see the evidence, and then placing blame wherever it needs to be placed?

If she has nothing, and has railroaded these guys, then she deserves the wrath. If she has something that proves guilt, then the guilty party(s) needs to pay for their crime.

Are you suggesting that all charges be dropped, and all of those involved walk free before we take any time to look at the evidence? Based on opinions and perception alone?

St. Louis handled things much differently with Ferguson. They were laying as much evidence as they could out to the public as soon as they could. Not all of it mind you, but enough to know that Wilson wasn't in the wrong. Yet even then, he still went through the same legal process that every other accused criminal goes through.

Was what happened to Wilson fair? Absolutely not. A good man lost his career and has faced many changes in his life. But that is our system, and it applies to everybody whether you wear a badge or not. But we can be confident that Wilson wasn't a criminal because we all had the chance to view the evidence. Can you be confident that these guys in Baltimore are not guilty without seeing it?

What do you feel about the charges against those hundreds of bikers? Should they be dropped?

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:...I think this line of thought is very dangerous. You can't say "it's not about real evidence" when you don't even know what the real evidence is....

As I said, you have more confidence in people's integrity than I do.

I haven't spent all that much time in courtrooms or formal legal proceedings. But I have seen people lie under oath on the witness stand, more than once, in situations where I was a first hand witness. I have seen plaintiffs, with their attys, directly and openly violate court orders without any ill consequences from the judges. I have seen enough instances in legal matters where honesty was completely absent. I have first generation relatives who have served as state supreme court judges, district attys, junk-yard dog attys, in the fed appellate court, and I hear their commentary.

Accordingly I have no confidence, particularly in such a racially and emotionally charged matter as this, that anyone will tell the truth, or that any evidence is free from some sort of tampering/manipulation/convolution. Everyone involved has their own agenda, very little of which includes fact or truth.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

quote:

I haven't spent all that much time in courtrooms or formal legal proceedings. But I have seen people lie under oath on the witness stand, more than once, in situations where I was a first hand witness. I have seen plaintiffs, with their attys, directly and openly violate court orders without any ill consequences from the judges. I have seen enough instances in legal matters where honesty was completely absent. I have first generation relatives who have served as state supreme court judges, district attys, junk-yard dog attys, in the fed appellate court, and I hear their commentary.

Accordingly I have no confidence, particularly in such a racially and emotionally charged matter as this, that anyone will tell the truth, or that any evidence is free from some sort of tampering/manipulation/convolution. Everyone involved has their own agenda, very little of which includes fact or truth.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

We don't disagree at all. I have personally witnessed some of the very same things you have. But that's our system.

So what makes these 6 police officers any different than anybody else? Should they be immune to prosecution because of their chosen profession?

Maybe we have a case of pure politics with six completely innocent parties charged. Or maybe we have a case where some or all of these people actually committed criminal acts. I'd like to see the evidence first, and then decide which is which.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:...I'd like to see the evidence first, and then decide which is which.

And that's the whole point. You have confidence the evidence presented will be factual and truthful and the jury will be impartial. I don't. It will come down to which lie fits my agenda.

quote:

And that's the whole point. You have confidence the evidence presented will be factual and truthful and the jury will be impartial. I don't. It will come down to which lie fits my agenda.

But that's often the case in any criminal prosecution. Should we just not bring criminal charges against anybody?

I once had a peeping tom, I mean detective, go to the prosecuting attorney over some stolen jewelry I had purchased. I was buying and selling professionally, and had no idea. Didn't stop him from fabricating a confession and having charges brought. I met him at the police station and agreed to an interview. Apparently he forgot to turn the camera on, his tape recorder was broken, and according to him, although I was willing to confess to the crime, I refused to sign a statement. Of course none of that was true.

I had my day in court. Did I mention he was a peeping tom? Couldn't get him prosecuted, but he did loose his job.

All prosecution is biased. All testimony is biased. Sometimes the evidence is twisted into something it's not. That's what we call every day, in every courtroom, in every city across America. These guys are going to get their day in the system just like Me, just like Darren Wilson, just like those bikers in Waco, and just like everybody else wrongly or rightly charged with a crime.

Somebody is clearly wrong, and it's either the prosecutor or the accused. So let is all shake out so we can see who is who. And if the officers are wrongly convicted, they can appeal.

This Baltimore Sun article is a fairly detailed account of the incident.

It explains why the prosecutor wants to try Porter first.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne...-20150926-story.html

As Freddie Gray was being transported in a police van through West Baltimore, at least one officer warned that Gray needed medical care but wondered, along with others, whether he was faking injuries or being uncooperative, according to investigators who reviewed the officers' statements during a departmental probe.

Officer William Porter told police investigators that after being summoned to check on Gray on the morning of April 12, he told the van's driver that the city booking facility would not process Gray because he was in medical distress.

"Help me. Help me up," Gray said.

Porter helped Gray up and asked, "Do you need a medic or something? Do you need to go to the hospital?"

When Gray responded affirmatively, Porter said he told the van's driver, Officer Caesar Goodson, Jr., that Central Booking wouldn't accept Gray. Porter also told investigators he wasn't sure if Gray was in distress, or trying to convince officers to take him to the hospital instead of jail.

Task force members said that after Gray was placed in the van it was driven away to avoid a crowd that was forming, drawn by Gray's vocal protests. The van stopped at Mount and Baker streets, about a block south of the arrest site.

Several arresting officers followed, and according to some of their statements, they could see Gray rocking the van, beating on the doors and yelling. The officers told Gray to move away from the doors, and when he didn't, they opened them. Rice and another officer grabbed Gray and pulled him to the ground, face down. Gray kicked and squirmed as officers put flex cuffs and leg irons on him.

Officers put him back into the wagon, where he was left cuffed and shackled, face down on the floor. The van drove away.

Soon after that stop, Goodson asked dispatch to send an officer to check on Gray. Porter met the van near the intersection of Druid Hill Avenue and Dolphin Street, peeked inside and saw Gray face down. Police say that according to Porter, that led to his exchange with Gray and his comment to Goodson about Central Booking.

Though Gray indicated he wanted medical help, Porter told investigators in his statement that he wasn't sure the detainee was in distress. "Everybody plays the 'I need to go to hospital' thing when they get arrested," Porter said in his statement.

Soon, Gray seemed better, Porter told investigators. "He was calm," the officer said.

Moments later a call came across the police radio for "10-16" — an officer in distress.

Goodson climbed back into the van and drove to a location near the intersection of West North Avenue and Pennsylvania Avenue, more than a mile away.

There, Goodson picked up another detainee, Donta Allen, whom officers had arrested.

White — who had been called to the area to investigate citizen complaints about Gray's arrest — arrived and walked to the rear of the van. Porter, Rice and other officers also were there.

The police account also noted some of the conflicts in the officers' statements.

According to White's statement, she could not see Gray's face because his head was turned away from the van's door. She asked Gray, "Sir, what's going on?" He didn't say anything, White told investigators, adding that she assumed he was being uncooperative.

In her statement, White recalled Porter saying that Gray's medical problem was "jail-itis" — a reference to not wanting to be confined. She said none of the officers informed her that Gray had asked for a medic.

Porter told investigators that White asked Gray if he needed a medic or wanted to go to the hospital. Gray did not respond to that question.

He simply said, "Yeah," when she called his name, according to Porter.

Porter told investigators that White directed officers to get medical care for Gray, after Porter told her that Gray appeared to be in distress. Porter said White told him to follow the van to the Western District police station, drop off Allen and follow the van with Gray to a hospital.

Police said Allen told officers, who were trying to determine how Gray was injured, that the van didn't drive recklessly or make any fast turns while he was in it.

According to the police investigators' account, at the district station, Porter, Goodson and Officer Zachary Novak opened Gray's side of the wagon. Gray was on his knees facing the van's cabin, with his head leaning against a wall. It looked like he wasn't breathing.

An ambulance was summoned. Porter said, "He's not looking too good," according to his statement. Gray was unresponsive when he was taken out of the van and driven to a hospital.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
I'd like to see the evidence first, and then decide which is which.

Consider this... Given who Mosby is, and given her demonstrated motivations, 'if' there was real evidence against the officers, it would have been leaked to the media just like in the Ferguson shooting. Mosby was very quick to release that Freddie's arrest was no bueno because the knife he had was legal. but that has since been all but debunked as false.

The reality is, we'll likely never know if any of the officers are guilty of anything because of the overcharging by Mosby of the officers. Unless she can seat a lynch mob (which may indeed be possible in that cesspool), my bet is all the officers walk on the charges. And if their cases are dismissed for lack of evidence, you can bet Baltimore is going to see some huge lawsuits from these guys. As well it should... Oh, those lawsuits are likely to wait until after the savages head back out and burn down some more of the city.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

And that's the whole point. You have confidence the evidence presented will be factual and truthful and the jury will be impartial. I don't. It will come down to which lie fits my agenda.

But that's often the case in any criminal prosecution. Should we just not bring criminal charges against anybody?

All prosecution is biased. All testimony is biased. Sometimes the evidence is twisted into something it's not. That's what we call every day, in every courtroom, in every city across America. These guys are going to get their day in the system just like Me, just like Darren Wilson, just like those bikers in Waco, and just like everybody else wrongly or rightly charged with a crime.

But that's exactly why the change of venue option is so important. Of course bias exists in everyone and everything. But there is justification in moving a trial from an environment like Baltimore, to a venue slightly less 'hostile' to the accused.

It appears, watching Mosby, the three named Mayor, and now this judge work in Baltimore that you can't tell the criminals from the good guys (assuming there are any) without a scorecard. I think I'll lean toward Scoutmaster's interpretation that these cops cannot get an honest, lawful, trial in Baltimore given the environment.

quote:

I think I'll lean toward Scoutmaster's interpretation that these cops cannot get an honest, lawful, trial in Baltimore given the environment.

Can't the very same thing be said about those bikers in Waco? We hardly hear a peep about them, and there are hundreds as opposed to 6. The prosecution there is acting in a very similar manner, as are the other players involved in the system.

We can't say that it's not fair until it has been not fair. There hasn't been a trial. There hasn't been a lot of evidence released. Let these things happen, then when it's all out on the table, we will all know who is who.

There has been a lot of evidence released.

The charges by the prosecutor are known. The prosecutor has the following claims:

1. illegal arrest

2. failure to use seat belt in van

3. failure to provide medical assistance

The information being reported shows the worst thing that was done was to not seek medical help sooner.

And that is complicated because it is a common everyday occurrence for the prisoners to say they need medical help. The term used in Baltimore is that they have jailitis. They hear it every day.

If you can't see this is a case of over charging to pander to a rioting mob, then you will never see it.

Taking people to trial for second degree depraved heart murder is not consistent with anything that has been shown to have occurred.

Officer Goodson (van driver) stopped once just to request someone come check on Freddie Gray.

If Gray hadn't been causing such a commotion in the van, he wouldn't have been shackled.

"Depraved heart murder is the form of murder that establishes that the willful doing of a dangerous and reckless act with wanton indifference to the consequences and perils involved, is just as blameworthy, and just as worthy of punishment, when the harmful result ensues, as is the express intent to kill itself.

This highly blameworthy state of mind is not one of mere negligence. It is not merely one even of gross criminal negligence.

It involves rather the deliberate perpetration of a knowingly dangerous act with reckless and wanton unconcern and indifference as to whether anyone is harmed or not. The common law treats such a state of mind as just as blameworthy, just as anti-social and, therefore, just as truly murderous as the specific intents to kill and to harm."


The classic example of depraved-heart murder, Maryland's courts have said, is "shooting of a rifle into a passing passenger train with the result that a person on the train is slain."

How many tens of thousands of Baltimore prisoners were driven to jail in vans w/o being seatbelted ?

quote:

If you can't see this is a case of over charging to pander to a rioting mob, then you will never see it.

Innocent people face criminal charges every day in this nation. It's a shame that it happens, but it is what it is.

If the prosecutor doesn't have the evidence to back up their charges, then those accused should be found not guilty. No?

A lot of you guys are complaining about "what might be" instead of "what is". You may be right. Maybe not. There's only one way to know, and that's to let our system work. Then if you're right, you can complain, and I'll complain along with you. If you're wrong, you've wasted a lot of time complaining for no reason.

Patience. It's a virtue, or so I'm told.