SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    'Unabomber' Ted Kaczynski found dead in prison cell
Page 1 2 3 4 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
'Unabomber' Ted Kaczynski found dead in prison cell Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
injecting blacks with syphillis and offering no treatment.

There was a study of Black men who had acquired syphilis in the common way who were not given the proper treatment so as to study the course of the disease, but I am not aware of any experiments in the US that actively infected anyone.

E.g.: https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

Can you cite confirmation for your statement?

But yes, what is considered ethical in medical research has evolved considerably.

As for being “concerned” about something that happened so long ago that virtually everyone who was responsible is now dead, what do we do if we are concerned? MK-ULTRA wasn’t the first thing that the CIA shouldn’t have been involved in (not to mention the people who actually conducted the experiments), and wasn’t the last, but like the Tuskegee program such things are generally recognized today as the terribly unethical programs they were.

Reading about the disgustingly immoral medical experiments the Japanese conducted on people in China during that war is enough to cause nightmares, but there’s not much that can be done today to right those wrongs. Or countless other wrongs committed by countless other people and regimes.




6.4/93.6

“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 48020 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
semi-reformed sailor
Picture of MikeinNC
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by mike28w:
I haven't found any details, but I do wonder how an 81-year-old with end stage cancer IN PRISON figures out a way to kill himself. No guns, knives, no drugs, no carbon monoxide?? If he hung himself, what did he use?

Ironically, I think that it would have been difficult for Ted to kill himself without the use of some form of technology (which he hated) .... Without technology, it would be hard for a frail old man to have the physical strength to accomplish this.... Seems to me....


You know prisoners hang themselves all the time, right? Tear a tee shirt and braid it into a length of rope, tie it to the end of the bunk and Just pull their feet up. Or their jumpsuit. I’ve seen both. And even guys who were on suicide watch. The jailers check them every 15 minutes-plenty of time to punch out.



"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein

“You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020

“A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker
 
Posts: 11598 | Location: Temple, Texas! | Registered: October 07, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
posted Hide Post
I believe ZSMICHAEL is conflating two different unethical syphilis studies conducted by the US Public Health Service in the mid-1900s... One study took place in Guatamala from 1946 to 1948, and another study took place in Tuskegee, Alabama from 1932-1972.

The Guatamala study involved deliberately exposing Guatamalan soldiers, prisoners, and mental health patients to syphilis and other STDs, in order to test the effectiveness of penicillin as a potential STD preventative not just a post-infection treatment.

The Tuskegee, Alabama study did not involve any deliberate infection, but involved withholding treatment from local African-American men who had become infected with syphilis, in order to study the progression of the disease.
 
Posts: 33568 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC:
quote:
Originally posted by mike28w:
I haven't found any details, but I do wonder how an 81-year-old with end stage cancer IN PRISON figures out a way to kill himself. No guns, knives, no drugs, no carbon monoxide?? If he hung himself, what did he use?

Ironically, I think that it would have been difficult for Ted to kill himself without the use of some form of technology (which he hated) .... Without technology, it would be hard for a frail old man to have the physical strength to accomplish this.... Seems to me....


You know prisoners hang themselves all the time, right? Tear a tee shirt and braid it into a length of rope, tie it to the end of the bunk and Just pull their feet up. Or their jumpsuit. I’ve seen both. And even guys who were on suicide watch. The jailers check them every 15 minutes-plenty of time to punch out.


Mike28- you're assuming that TK was frail.
MikeNC states his experiences with prisoners of what I'm going to assume have somewhere around normal intelligence.
We're talking about a dude that successfully made somewhat clever explosive devices from a hut in the middle of the woods. Someone with a higher IQ.
Wacking yourself in a prison cell aint that hard, and about as complicated as you want to make it.


______________________________________________________________________
"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 8691 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Having worked in a Federal prison, I can tell you that the majority of inmates are in pretty good shape.
 
Posts: 17719 | Location: Stuck at home | Registered: January 02, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MikeinNC:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mike28w:
I haven't found any details, but I do wonder how an 81-year-old with end stage cancer IN PRISON figures out a way to kill himself. No guns, knives, no drugs, no carbon monoxide?? If he hung himself, what did he use?

You know prisoners hang themselves all the time, right? Tear a tee shirt and braid it into a length of rope, tie it to the end of the bunk and Just pull their feet up. Or their jumpsuit. I’ve seen both. And even guys who were on suicide watch. The jailers check them every 15 minutes-plenty of time to punch out.


I'm 67 and have arthritis in my hands.... tearing a T-shirt without scissors would be exceedingly diificult for me. By the time that I'm 81, I doubt that I'm jumping on to a top bunk. But, I have no experience with prisons, so I am admittedly just talking out of my hat. I'll defer to your experience.
Just a question, why hasn't anyone in the media covered all of the juicy details. They would love to report that he hung himself with his speedos!! Big Grin Big GrinYikes!!
 
Posts: 1313 | Location: Idaho | Registered: October 21, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
It’s scary how on point he was with his writings.

On a side note, I got to meet and work with one of the EOD Techs that were there to assist in the clearance of his shack.


quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
The line between genius and madness is often so blurred as to be indistinguishable.

Ted Kaczynski was probably insane, but he was certainly a genius. Nearly thirty years ago he predicted our modern society. Have you read his manifesto? I am not advocating his goal and I am certainly not advocating his methods. Nevertheless, how many of us have examined his words, rather than relying upon a synopsis by the news media??

Industrial Society and its Future

Notice the use of the terms "leftists" and "social justice".

quote:
12. Those who are most sensitive about “politically incorrect” terminology are not the average
black ghetto-dweller, Asian immigrant, abused woman or disabled person, but a minority of
activists, many of whom do not even belong to any “oppressed” group but come from privileged
strata of society. Political correctness has its stronghold among university professors, who have
secure employment with comfortable salaries, and the majority of whom are heterosexual white
males from middle- to upper-middle-class families.

13. Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image
of being weak (women), defeated (American Indians), repellent (homosexuals) or otherwise
inferior. The leftists themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit to
themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely because they do see these groups as
inferior that they identify with their problems. (We do not mean to suggest that women, Indians,
etc. are inferior; we are only making a point about leftist psychology.)

14. Feminists are desperately anxious to prove that women are as strong and as capable as
men. Clearly they are nagged by a fear that women may not be as strong and as capable as men.

15. Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They
hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The
reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real
motives. They say they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and
so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist
finds excuses for them, or at best he grudgingly admits that they exist; whereas he enthusiastically
points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western
civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist’s real motive for hating America
and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.

16. Words like “self-confidence”, “self-reliance”, “initiative”, “enterprise”, “optimism”, etc., play
little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-
collectivist. He wants society to solve every one’s problems for them, satisfy everyone’s needs
for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in 4
his ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagonistic to the
concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser.

17. Art forms that appeal to modern leftish intellectuals tend to focus on sordidness, defeat and
despair, or else they take an orgiastic tone, throwing off rational control as if there were no hope
of accomplishing anything through rational calculation and all that was left was to immerse oneself
in the sensations of the moment.

18. Modern leftish philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, and objective reality, and to insist
that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the
foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can
be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftish philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians
systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in
their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological
needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it
satisfies the drive for power. More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because
they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e., failed,
inferior). The leftist’s feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification
of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies
the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. Leftists
are antagonistic to genetic explanations of human abilities or behavior because such explanations
tend to make some persons appear superior or inferior to others. Leftists prefer to give society the
credit or blame for an individual’s ability or lack of it. Thus if a person is “inferior” it is not his
fault, but society’s, because he has not been brought up properly.

19. The leftist is not typically the kind of person whose feelings of inferiority make him a braggart,
an egotist, a bully, a self-promoter, a ruthless competitor. This kind of person has not wholly lost
faith in himself. He has a deficit in his sense of power and self-worth, but he can still conceive of
himself as having the capacity to be strong, and his efforts to make himself strong produce his
unpleasant behavior.1 But the leftist is too far gone for that. His feelings of inferiority are so
ingrained that he cannot conceive of himself as individually strong and valuable. Hence the
collectivism of the leftist. He can feel strong only as a member of a large organization or a mass
movement with which he identifies himself.

20. Notice the masochistic tendency of leftist tactics. Leftists protest by lying down in front of
vehicles, they intentionally provoke police or racists to abuse them, etc. These tactics may often
be effective, but many leftists use them not as a means to an end but because they prefer
masochistic tactics. Self-hatred is a leftist trait.

21. Leftists may claim that their activism is motivated by compassion or by moral principles, and
moral principle does play a role for the leftist of the oversocialized type. But compassion and
moral principle cannot be the main motives for leftist activism. Hostility is too prominent a
component of leftist behavior; so is the drive for power. Moreover, much leftist behavior is not
rationally calculated to be of benefit to the people whom the leftists claim to be trying to help. For
example, if one believes that affirmative action is good for black people, does it make sense to
demand affirmative action in hostile or dogmatic terms? Obviously it would be more productive 5
to take a diplomatic and conciliatory approach that would make at least verbal and symbolic
concessions to white people who think that affirmative action discriminates against them. But
leftist activists do not take such an approach because it would not satisfy their emotional
needs. Helping black people is not their real goal. Instead, race problems serve as an excuse for
them to express their own hostility and frustrated need for power. In doing so they actually harm
black people, because the activists’ hostile attitude toward the white majority tends to intensify
race hatred.

22. If our society had no social problems at all, the leftists would have to invent problems in order
to provide themselves with an excuse for making a fuss.


...and:
quote:
33. Human beings have a need (probably based in biology) for something that we will call
the power process. This is closely related to the need for power (which is widely recognized) but
is not quite the same thing. The power process has four elements. The three most clear-cut of
these we call goal, effort and attainment of goal. (Everyone needs to have goals whose attainment
requires effort, and needs to succeed in attaining at least some of his goals.) The fourth element is
more difficult to define and may not be necessary for everyone. We call it autonomy and will
discuss it later (paragraphs 42-44).

34. Consider the hypothetical case of a man who can have anything he wants just by wishing for
it. Such a man has power, but he will develop serious psychological problems. At first he will
have a lot of fun, but by and by he will become acutely bored and demoralized. Eventually he may
become clinically depressed. History shows that leisured aristocracies tend to become
decadent. This is not true of fighting aristocracies that have to struggle to maintain their
power. But leisured, secure aristocracies that have no need to exert themselves usually become
bored, hedonistic and demoralized, even though they have power. This shows that power is not
enough. One must have goals toward which to exercise one’s power.

35. Everyone has goals; if nothing else, to obtain the physical necessities of life: food, water and
whatever clothing and shelter are made necessary by the climate. But the leisured aristocrat
obtains these things without effort. Hence his boredom and demoralization.


...and:
quote:
200. Until the industrial system has been thoroughly wrecked, the destruction of that system must
be the revolutionaries’ only goal. Other goals would distract attention and energy from the main
goal. More importantly if the revolutionaries permit themselves to have any other goal than the
destruction of technology, they will be tempted to use technology as a tool for reaching that other
goal. If they give in to that temptation, they will fall right back into the technological trap, because
modern technology is a unified, tightly organized system, so that, in order to retain some
technology, one finds oneself obliged to retain most technology, hence one ends up sacrificing
only token amounts of technology.

201. Suppose for example that the revolutionaries took “social justice” as a goal. Human nature
being what it is, social justice would not come about spontaneously; it would have to be
enforced. In order to enforce it the revolutionaries would have to retain central organization and
control. For that they would need rapid long-distance transportation and communication, and
therefore all the technology needed to support the transportation and communication systems. To
feed and clothe poor people they would have to use agricultural and manufacturing
technology. And so forth. So that the attempt to insure social justice would force them to retain
most parts of the technological system. Not that we have anything against social justice, but it
must not be allowed to interfere with the effort to get rid of the technological system.
202. It would be hopeless for revolutionaries to try to attack the system without using some
modern technology. If nothing else they must use the communications media to spread their
message. But they should use modern technology for only one purpose: to attack the technological system.
And that, gentlemen, is just a sample.
 
Posts: 874 | Location: NE Pennsylvania | Registered: December 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  The Lounge    'Unabomber' Ted Kaczynski found dead in prison cell

© SIGforum 2024