My question remains. How does fault (which the insurance companies will want) get assigned if there's no 'authority' tasked with doing so? Without that, it becomes a finger-pointing and fibbing contest.

Had this lady not readily admitted what she had done, someone could have claimed that hers was the parked vehicle and mine was the moving one, sideswiping hers on the way in. Thus, the ensuing argument over what really happened and whose fault it is.

I darned sure want it to be clear that the fault in this event is NOT mine. I'm not the one who screwed up. And as a result of that fault assignment, I want the other driver's insurance company to be fully responsible for making it right, in a manner that's as hassle- and stupidity-free as possible.

- - - -

I'm wondering now if I'm going to have to fight over OEM vs non-OEM parts. This truck has been in service only 28 months. I'm not okay with aftermarket/salvage parts on a vehicle this new.

Your question has been answered. The insurance companies assign fault. Are you naive enough to think that a cop with a high school education blames X and not Y and the insurance company is going to blindly agree with it?

Insurance companies assign fault. Not cops. So much so that a lot of states do not have LE assign fault.

Call me naive if you'd like. I don't care. I'm happy to admit there's a lot I don't know.

How is an insurance company supposed to assign the blame when they don't have a representative at the scene to actually see things, take pictures, record evidence, talk to people on-site before it all changes as people drive away? This makes little sense to me. That would be like asking me to tell you why your dishwasher leaked last weekend -- heck if I know! I'm 500 miles away, the water has dried up, and it happened at midnight.

Private property crashes here, unless there are injuries don't get LE response.

My entire driving life, Michigan has been a No Fault state. I file a claim with my insurance. i choose where I want the damage fixed. From that point, it's up to the adjusters and repair shop t figure out how much they are going to pay for the repairs. If the other party was at fault or even partially at fault, it's up to my insurance company to collect.

Michigan insurance is expensive. Our default is unlimited medical. You can choose a lower amount and get a discount. But I will say whenever I've had a claim, my insurance has taken care of it.

I find it odd that you have such a problem with Flock cameras because of government intrusion, but yet you demand government intrusion in a civil matter between you and your insurance company.

My vehicles have been in two accidents while parked at work. No police were involved in either and it all worked out.

First time, nice lady had a bad day at work and decided to pull off the road and sit under the gigantic shade tree in my employer's parking lot. Then, she proceeded to back-up 40' without using a mirror and hit my truck's quarter panel. One of my coworker's was smoking outback and witnessed so he grabbed me and she stayed around. It was a no-fault state, the she was honest, and I had my coworker as a witness so insurance waived the deductible.

Second time, it was an oil & gas facility covered by Maritime Transportation Security Act (MTSA) so everyone had to have a TWIC card to enter, entire facility was fenced, and there was site security. I'm inside in the office giving a presentation, and our gate security summoned me to the parking lot. Jackass contractor was late to a safety meeting for something unrelated to my work, checked in at the gate, was told back-in parking only at the site, and then bozo proceeds to pull in forward into a parking spot right in front of the security guy. Security informs him for the 2nd time that he has to back-in park so the rocket scientists proceeds to back-up about 40' without using mirrors and does about $1500 damage to my truck's fender. The facility manager ran his ass off as he didn't want somebody that stupid working around high pressure combustible hydrocarbons. This happened in a "at-fault" state and the guy tried to lie to his insurance company about what happened. Fortunately, I had filled out my employer's accident form and had the security guard sign it as a witness. I faxed it to my insurance company, and once again got my deductible waived. Frankly, my employer made me do more paperwork than my insurance company.

Ah, yes, the Flock thing. I wondered when our difference of opinion on that would start to affect this discussion. Evidently the answer to that question is, "from the start."

I believe there's a great big difference between mass surveillance regardless of the lack of a crime and documenting an incident that has actually taken place. But that's perhaps another discussion.

At no time have I demanded government intrusion in this.
What I have done is lived under the belief that some sort of authority was a requirement in events like this, particularly when there are no witnesses, so as to record the facts as soon after the event as possible and to put eventual financial responsibility in the right place. Apparently it's not. In addition to being willing to admit I don't know something, I'm usually willing to admit it when I'm wrong.

I suppose I've learned something overnight, and that's always a plus.

I pick up knowledge here way more often than I give it; that's one of the great things about discussion forums, right? Continue to call me naive, it's cool. I'm dealing with this for the first time; you've seen a kazillion of them. I'm not blind to that.

Here , law enforcement does not estimate damage on a vehicle . As to who is to blame , sometimes it's pretty obvious but on the accident report there is a box to indicate " Movement prior to contact " or something like that . Between that , the diagram , and the driver's statements , the insurance companies figure it out most of the time .

quote:

That would be like asking me to tell you why your dishwasher leaked last weekend -- heck if I know! I'm 500 miles away, the water has dried up, and it happened at midnight.

You're essentially asking a cop to do the same thing.

Take this example: 4 way stop, no witnesses stuck around, just the parties involved. One driver claims they had the right of way. So does the other. How is a cop supposed to magically figure out who's telling the truth? We often even get calls after both vehicles (or single vehicle vs deer) already left the scene and went home or to work, and we're still expected to provide a report. In that case I can't even see the position of the vehicles and related damage...what am I reporting, and why am I even involved at this point?

Then there's the other issue that Jones highlighted...unless there's impairment, serious bodily injury or death, or some other criminal element, this is purely a civil matter between the drivers and their insurance companies. Especially if it's on private property, where the Police don't even have the authority to cite anybody. And if it is on the street and I start writing citations (one area of civil law where we actually do have the authority to act) for stuff I didn't witness and can't prove, that just causes problems for me later in court...not to mention the innocent driver if I get it wrong. Despite what some here seem to believe (not directed at you, vthoky), I don't get my jollies off handing out $200 traffic tickets to members of my community, and I rarely write them except in the case of egregious violations. And I absolutely never write them if I can't stand behind them 100% in court. Most times with accidents, I'm getting there after the fact, didn't witness it, and I'm not going to sign my name to a charge that I can't prove.

A crash report is simply documentation for the insurance companies. We document conditions, what vehicles and occupants were involved, any witnesses, what we're told, and what we observe. The insurance companies then use that information to assign fault. It's an area of civil law (like residency disputes and custody complaints) where we have very little authority to act, and in most cases we shouldn't even be involved. I work in town and 90% of the crash reports I take could just as easily be handled by the parties involved taking a few photos and calling their insurance companies on their own. But the insurance lobby is strong, they're getting free labor out of the taxpayer, and state law says any crash with damage over $2500 (pretty much everything these days) requires a police report, so we keep doing them. And when people get pissed about the outcome, it gets directed at us instead of the insurance companies, so they love that even more.

Also, keep in mind that the above is in reference to minor, fender-bender type property damage accidents. Major crashes with serious bodily injury or death get a specialized reconstruction team and a much more thorough investigation, as they should. Also, if there's evidence of impairment or criminal recklessness involved in even a minor crash, those are actual crimes that I can and will go after.

Please consider the purpose and reason of determining who is at fault. Such a determination is necessary for insurance companies to assess the responsibility for payment, in some states and situations. But, seeking this information relies in part on the testimony of the insured parties. Your statement is of value. I was parked. I came out and saw… My truck is severely damaged. Here are pictures from various angles. Those statements will help the companies cooperate.

The estimate of financial damages is never easy. The purpose of the estimate is to determine if the accident is reportable. If it is, the at fault judgment then can result in citations or charges. Or not. But, the report can then be used by insurance companies to assess their risk for a driver. The state can also use reports to determine if a driver should have a license.

The elderly driver may not be a good driver anymore. It would be better for the accident to be reported to help her family reach a decision to take the keys.

Thank you, 95fstech and 4MUL8R, for your responses.

This lady was a sweetheart. I could be angry at the situation, but I couldn't be angry at her. Surely, she drew out the emotion/compassion (84, hard of hearing due to sinus issues, husband of 62 years passed just a year ago, etc.) but beyond all that she was simply a pleasure to talk with. I think I'd have really enjoyed meeting her under better circumstances. She was apologetic, kind, solidly interested in solving the problem, and she even said, "maybe it's time for me to hang up my keys." She said she dreaded calling her children (one lives three hours or so west of here, the other about the three hours east)... even laughed for a moment and wondered if they were going to "put me at Shady Pines."

I've sent the report and a batch of pics to my insurance agent. Let's see how this progresses.

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
Call me naive if you'd like. I don't care. I'm happy to admit there's a lot I don't know.

How is an insurance company supposed to assign the blame when they don't have a representative at the scene to actually see things, take pictures, record evidence, talk to people on-site before it all changes as people drive away? This makes little sense to me. That would be like asking me to tell you why your dishwasher leaked last weekend -- heck if I know! I'm 500 miles away, the water has dried up, and it happened at midnight.

Granted it does vary by state and agency but here most of those things you mention the police do not do.

In the case of a simple fender bender the police here simply write down what people say. They don’t take pictures, they don’t investigate, they don’t record evidence.
They simply write down what everyone said and their identifying information. That is it.


It is just like any other CIVIL matter that may make its way to court. You or your representative is responsible for presenting your case in court/to the insurance company.
You should be taking pictures of the scene and your insurance company (should and likely will) request any traffic camera footage, dash cam footage, local area camera footage etc.

In today’s day and age DashCams are invaluable. Well worth the $100.

I can tell you from working countless wrecks over the last 21 years just simply taking pictures of where vehicles come to rest or the damage on the vehicle, very rarely tells the story of what happened.

Also there are many instances where no one can truly assign blame and in the end the insurance companies agree to cover their own losses.

Pa we don't estimate damage. Been that way for quite a bit. The accident is either reportable Car towed/Injury. Or Non Reportable. Car is drivable and not injury reported. I had crash one winter, Ford Bronco on it's side, Tow truck flipped it on it's wheels and the occupant drove off. Got a call later from the owner requesting I change the report. Asked him why? He told me the insurance totaled the vehicle and wanted me to change the report to reflect that. Told him Sorry, not happening. Crash report stays as is. My report is for the State, Not the insurance company. And the cause of the crash was "Too Fast for Conditions". Have fun with that.

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:
My question remains. How does fault (which the insurance companies will want) get assigned if there's no 'authority' tasked with doing so? Without that, it becomes a finger-pointing and fibbing contest.

Had this lady not readily admitted what she had done, someone could have claimed that hers was the parked vehicle and mine was the moving one, sideswiping hers on the way in. Thus, the ensuing argument over what really happened and whose fault it is.

I darned sure want it to be clear that the fault in this event is NOT mine. I'm not the one who screwed up. And as a result of that fault assignment, I want the other driver's insurance company to be fully responsible for making it right, in a manner that's as hassle- and stupidity-free as possible.

- - - -

I'm wondering now if I'm going to have to fight over OEM vs non-OEM parts. This truck has been in service only 28 months. I'm not okay with aftermarket/salvage parts on a vehicle this new.

What happened in my case was even though the other driver admitted fault both on scene and to the insurance company they (Allstate) initially came to me as 50/50 fault. I laughed and sent them my dash cam video which clearly showed me stopping when I saw the collision was imminent, and having enough time to honk my horn for about 1.5 seconds while stopped before the crash. With that they came back at 75/25 which just pissed me off. After consulting with my agent I filed a claim with my insurance and let them subrogate with Allstate, and ended up winning with no fault, so even my deductible was covered by them.

Unfortunately if you don’t have video or witness proof the other driver’s insurance will try like hell to minimize their liability. I would consult your agent like I did, may also need an attorney if you really want to fight them.

Not sure what your state law is, but I had the option to take my vehicle to the shop of my choosing for repair. I believe I did have to pick from an approved list for the initial estimate. I have a Subaru and there’s a dealership with body shop in my area so that’s where I took it so I wouldn’t have to worry about parts quality. But my google fu says most states allow insurance to use aftermarket parts, or if you demand OEM you will have to pay the difference unless it’s under warranty. They should never use salvage parts without your consent, have to be new just not necessarily OEM.

In NC there’s a threshold for the report getting submitted to the state and showing up on your driving history. I believe it is $1,000 or injuries or hit and run. I’ve done a zillion crash reports but not in many years.

The amount has never been increased in my career. All officers guess, and many low-ball on purpose. The insurance company will figure it out.

We also explicitly do not determine fault in regular crashes (someone already mentioned major crash reconstruction, that’s a whole different ballgame). We document and tell the people how to get their report and to contact their insurance companies. My agency doesn’t even write tickets unless it’s something in our presence.

Best thing by far, other than a dash cam, is having a third party witness.