quote:

Originally posted by Flashlightboy:
The light is working as intended. It does not fall under a design, manufacturing or other negligence defect. It's not broken and it didn't fail during use.

Maybe. Did SureFire make any claims how long the LEDs would last when the lights were purchased?

If not, did they state the LEDs would be X levels of brightness less in Y years? I don’t remember any disclosures that the LEDs were wear items that would lose brightness over time. I’d be ticked off.

On the other hand, I never got a chance because I replaced the heads on mine with ones from Malkoff Devices for better run times, more even spread, and brighter light.

Edited to add:

The warranty from 2009 or so:

ILLUMINATION TOOLS WARRANTY
SureFire, LLC warrants our illumination tool products to be free from defect in workmanship and materials, including any LEDs housed within, for the lifetime of the original owner. We will repair, replace, or refund your original purchase price of this product, at our discretion, if it is determined by us to be defective. Electronics, chargers, and rechargeable batteries are covered for a period of two years with proof of purchase. Normal wear and tear — including lamps burning out, batteries draining, and switches wearing out — is not covered, nor is damage resulting from abuse, neglect, battery leakage, use of other than SureFire-brand batteries or accessories, or altering this product from its original state. SureFire offers a 10-year limited warranty in any country or under any jurisdiction where specific restrictions exist on limited lifetime warranties.

Note that the LED is explicitly included in the parts covered, not in "normal wear and tear" parts not covered. The OP has 3 lights that work and three that don't put out nearly the light the three that work do. That's a defect in materials for the three dim lights that occurred within the original owner's lifetime. They most certainly are not working as intended if they don't produce 80 lumens of light.

We don't have the parts is an excuse. We didn't know the LEDs wouldn't last is an excuse.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: trapper189,

I purchased all 6, within months of each other. All used very little, very occasionally in drawers on nightstands. 3 continue to operate very well, probably not as new, but not at a tiny fraction of their original output either. And when I say a fraction, I'd peg the failing lights at about 20% of the output of the used but good ones. Not a small difference at all.

And here's an interesting observation. They actually define "lifetime" as the purchaser's lifetime. Very unusual, and very meaningful from a legal standpoint. Law tends to define lifetime as some number of years, unless it is specifically specified otherwise, which it is here.

quote:

I’d argue that there’s a bunch of other things that could fail for one reason or another that would likely be covered. For example if the light was dropped and the body cracked or something like that, I feel pretty confident that the light would be covered.

You shouldn't be confident. That example of damage traditionally falls under abuse and is specifically excluded in the express warranty. They might cover it, but it's apparent they are clearly within their rights to deny the claim

quote:

Normal wear and tear — including lamps burning out, batteries draining, and switches wearing out — is not covered

If I read it correctly, lamps going dim over time are not covered, pretty clear

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Normal wear and tear — including lamps burning out, batteries draining, and switches wearing out — is not covered

If I read it correctly, lamps going dim over time are not covered, pretty clear

Yes, that is clear, and it's the first time I've seen that version. None of the other two or three versions of the warranty I've seen have explicitly named LED emitters or bulbs. Here's an example, from a more recent list of wear and tear exclusions. Not certain, but may be the current version:

"Our warranty does not cover consumables or normal wear-and-tear— things like batteries draining, headbands and headpads wearing out, ink cartridges running out, and switches wearing out—or damage resulting from abuse, alterations, unauthorized repairs, or use contrary to SureFire’s user manuals."

So, why remove "bulbs" from the list of wear and tear exclusions? I think I have a reasonable guess.

Lamps as in the xenon incandescent lamps they were using in some models at the time. LEDs are not lamps and the warranty specifically and clearly includes them in their lifetime warranty:

"SureFire, LLC warrants our illumination tool products to be free from defect in workmanship and materials, including any LEDs housed within, for the lifetime of the original owner."

Not once in the 2006 catalog are LEDs referred to as lamps. There are however four different types of lamps mentioned.

2006 SureFire Catalog:

LIGHT-EMITTING DIODES — UNPRECEDENTED RELIABILITY Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) are solid-state light emitters. Although the technology and physics involved in producing LEDs is highly advanced, LEDs themselves are physically fairly simple. As shown at right, an LED consists mainly of a solid emitter mounted on a solid base and attached to electrical leads (wires), with a clear polymer covering for protection and/or light focusing. While LEDs can’t yet match the light output of the brightest bulbs (continuous-use LED sources currently have a practical limit of less than 150 lumens), they do offer several distinct advantages over their incandescent kin, including:

• Durability. With no glass bulb or filament to break or burn out, LEDs are virtually immune to failure from mechanical shock — from dropping your flashlight onto a rock, for example.

• Longevity. Under normal operating conditions, some high-output incandescent bulbs have a lifespan of less than 50 hours. In contrast, LEDs used in flashlights can last for thousands of hours.

XENON/HALOGEN INCANDESCENT LAMPS — HIGH–OUTPUT PERFORMANCE

The miniature incandescent lamps that SureFire uses in its WeaponLights and flashlights are not typical off-the-shelf products. They are state-of-the-art devices with the following features:

Custom Filaments — The incandescent lamps (“light bulbs”) used in our WeaponLights and flashlights are designed around a specific power supply, light output, and runtime. Filament performance varies according to wire diameter, filament length, filament coil diameter, total coils, and coil-to-coil proximity. Finally, the finished filament must withstand the vibration and G-forces produced by firearms.

Xenon Gas — High filament temperatures (over 5,000°F) cause tungsten atoms to “boil off” the filament and migrate to the cooler glass wall of a lamp, where they condense to form a dark light-blocking layer. Adding a high-pressure inert gas inhibits tungsten boil-off, which reduces the Identical non-SureFire miniature lamps. Left lamp is unused, right lamp shows tungsten deposits after several hours of use. rate of tungsten atom deposition and lengthens the operating life of the lamp. The gas also permits increased filament operating temperature, which in turn increases light output for a given power consumption rate. Argon and krypton are often used as the inert fill gases, but they don’t work as well as xenon. Although xenon is much more expensive, SureFire uses it exclusively to provide optimum lamp performance.

Halogens — To maximize their operating life and light output, some SureFire lamps contain a proprietary mix of halogens, a family of elements that includes fluorine, chlorine, bromine, and iodine. Inside a functioning incandescent lamp, tungsten atoms boil off the filament, migrate toward the cooler areas near the...

HID LAMPS — THE ULTIMATE HIGH-OUTPUT LIGHT SOURCE High Intensity Discharge (HID) lamps do not use a tungsten filament, as do incandescent lamps. Instead, they use a clear quartz capsule (an “arc tube”) having electrodes at either end and containing high-pressure xenon gas and additional chemical components. When sufficient voltage is applied to the electrodes the gas inside the tube is heated and ionized, enabling it to conduct electricity in the form of an “arc” (basically a sustained electrical spark), and causing it to emit light. When functioning, pressure inside the arc tube rises to several times atmospheric pressure. HID lamps are both extremely bright and highly efficient — with an equal power input, they produce many times the lumen output of a tungsten incandescent lamp — and their operating life far exceeds that of comparable incandescent lamps. An additional benefit: since they have no filament to break or burn out they are extremely resistant to mechanical shock and vibration.

SUREFIRE GUARANTEE Lamps will burn out, batteries will be used up, and switches for WeaponLights™ may eventually need to be replaced. Everything else is covered by our no-hassle guarantee: If it breaks, we fix it!

WARRANTY SureFire warrants its products to be free from defects in materials and workmanship. SureFire will repair or replace, at its option and without charge, any product or part which is found to be defective under normal use and service. Such repair or replacement shall be the purchaser’s sole and exclusive remedy under this warranty. This warranty does not include normal maintenance and services and does not apply to any products or parts which have been subject to modification, misuse, negligence, accident, improper maintenance or repair by anyone other than SureFire.

Excludes suppressors, which are covered under a separate guarantee.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Lamps as in the xenon incandescent lamps they were using in some models at the time. LEDs are not lamps and the warranty specifically and clearly includes them in their lifetime warranty:

"SureFire, LLC warrants our illumination tool products to be free from defect in workmanship and materials, including any LEDs housed within, for the lifetime of the original owner."

Wow! Fascinating. Another version of their warranty. Interesting how it morphs over time.

Any idea how old this is and can you tell me where you found this? I could sure use screen shot. I still do not expect them to honor the warranty, they're pretty dug in. But, at this point I love pulling the curtain back and revealing this company for who they truly are.

Hope some folks here stuck around the see this.

I added more to my post above.

Also, on pages 72 and 73 of the 2006 catalog, there are three sections: lamps, lamps assemblies, and LED conversion heads. All of the items listed under lamps and lamp assemblies are incandescent or HID. Clearly, LEDs were not lamps.

SureFire 2006 Catalog

For fun, how are those virtually indestructible LEDs working out as surefire describes them:

The 6P LED is a compact high-output flashlight featuring a hard-anodized aerospace aluminum body. It uses a virtually indestructible power-regulated LED and a precision micro-textured reflector to produce a smooth 120-lumen beam—six times the light of a big two-D-cell flashlight, and more than enough to temporarily blind and disorient an aggressor by impairing his night-adapted vision. The tactically-correct pushbutton tailcap switch provides secure, ergonomic activation control: press for momentary-on, twist for constant-on.

2011 Catalog, once again LEDs are differentiated from lamps:

SureFire uses specially selected commercially available light sources as well as proprietary light sources manufactured exclusively for SureFire. These include light emitting diodes (LEDs), HID arc lamps, lasers, and high pressure xenon gas-filled tungsten lamps.

2011 Warranty:

ILLUMINATION TOOL, EDGED WEAPON & PEN WARRANTY

SureFire warrants our illumination tools, edged weapons, and pen products to be free from defects in workmanship and materials, including any LEDs housed within, for the lifetime of the original owner. We will repair, replace, or refund your original purchase price of these products if it is determined by us to be defective. Electronics, chargers, and rechargeable batteries are covered for a period of two years with proof of purchase. Normal wear and tear—including lamps burning out, headbands and headpads wearing out, batteries draining, ink cartridges running out, and switches wearing out—is not covered, nor is damage resulting from misuse, abuse, neglect, battery damage, use of other than SureFire-brand batteries or accessories, or altering these products from their original state. Parts and accessories for illumination tools are not covered by this warranty.

Just brilliant, trapper. This ought to be fun...

I have had three Surefire service experiences. One amounted to a sort of "whatever" rating. The second was frustrating but ultimately resulted in a positive outcome. The third was easy peasy.

The first had to do with a SIG 551 Surefire weaponlight handguard. One of the "nav lights" was inoperable when I bought the handguard (used) in ~2014. I contacted them about a repair, and they said they'd try. I sent it to them, waited a while, and eventually got it back unrepaired and ultimately a little worse off than when I sent it. It was a pretty old product, and they tried, so the result didn't bother me.

The second was a LED "Vampire" white/IR head for a two-CR123 weaponlight body like the ones that were standard before they started making the "Scout" bodies. This particular head had a bad dark spot in the middle of the beam. I asked them if they could repair or replace it. I had purchased the head new, but didn't use it for at least two years.

The communication on this second case was protracted and borderline infuriating. I had originally sent in only the head, as that's how I bought it, and that's where the issue was. Apparently their policy had changed, and they would only do a 1/1 swap for a similar entire light. So I had to send them another package with a light body, tailcap, and remote switch. They finally sent me a replacement. It was ultimately a decent upgrade for me, so I am still pleased with the outcome, and consider it a positive expereince.

The third was a rail grabber remote switch that split at a seam, rendering the grabber portion ineffective. I sent them a picture, and they sent me a new switch.

I have sent sent a response via email to Surfire highlighting the information trapper provided that refutes their claim that the LED's are wear components using their own words.

To this point they have refused to even address published aspects of their warranty and what the words actually mean, and I expect the bad faith, deflecting, and hypocrisy to continue. I'll keep the forum updated.

While we've seen various copies of warranty information, curious, which warranty applies.


is it the warranty that was offered at the time the product was sold/bought, or like a TOS does the warranty you got when you bought them update to the newer clauses on later warranty.

Imagine it's part of the warranty if it does or not.

Perhaps the OG warranty is what they apply.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
While we've seen various copies of warranty information, curious, which warranty applies.


is it the warranty that was offered at the time the product was sold/bought, or like a TOS does the warranty you got when you bought them update to the newer clauses on later warranty.

Imagine it's part of the warranty if it does or not.

Perhaps the OG warranty is what they apply.

Honestly, HRK, they refuse to discuss the language of their warranty regardless of the date. They simply claim its wear and tear, its old, its discontinued, we have no parts, and ignore my queries abut the language of the warranty and what it means.

The basis for their exclusion is their claim the LED is subject to wear and tear. That claim is in direct contrast to their other published claims in their own warranties the the LED is an expressly named covered component, and that is it "virtually indestructible". I would go so far as to say their wear and tear claims are unsubstantiated because they have not produced any evidence that their warranty has ever expressly excluded LED's because of wear and tear. They want it both ways. They want to ignore their own prior statements, they don't want to include, LED's as an expressly excluded item, but they want to claim LED exclusion when it's convenient. What does 'No Hassle" mean? what does "lifetime of the purchaser" mean? Words have meaning, and they do not mean what they claim they mean IMO.

If this were a civil court case, the standard is a preponderance of the evidence. I feel like we have that. But it's not. And, they have not replied to my latest email yet.

I am no lawyer, but I am aware that the law is a twisty thing and it isn’t always what one would think.

With that said, one would think that with a discrete product like a flashlight, as opposed to something with software that upgrades and you agree to new terms of service with every upgrade, the warranty that would matter would be the one in effect when you bought it. Almost like a contract. “I signed up on this day under these terms. New guys may get better terms or worse terms, but these are the terms I got.” Legally, that may or may not be the case.

I suspect that even if you have a good, valid, legal case, you’d spend more on lawyer’s fees than any resolution that you’d get from the company.

Were I in your shoes, I’d think long and hard about what I want to get out of the situation, what would look like success / fair resolution to me.

It sounds like Customer Service has made a decision that they are not going to help in any way that would make you happy.

One approach that might make sense (or might not) would be to write a nice letter to the CEO (and board members if you can get ahold of addresses for them) and explain that you are puzzled. The company has a great reputation for standing behind their products but you feel strongly that it is not happening in this case. It is possible that someone in CS is confused. In discussing it with your invisible friends (you might even link the thread) the text of the warranty has come out as well as what happened with the LEDs. Lay out why it seems clear they are not standing behind their product and give them at least one if not multiple things that they could reasonably do to satisfy you. You might even mention that maybe a gun forum isn’t the ideal place to ask the question, or at least maybe not this one, and perhaps you should take the question to one or more flashlight forums, or other gun forums, or maybe both. And you can certainly do that, but you’d rather report back to this forum that apparently one person in CS was confused, you managed to get in contact with the right person and Surefire has stood behind their warranty just as we all expected they would. It may not help at all, but you shouldn’t be out more than the time it took to write the letter.

To be effective, the letter needs to provide one or more reasonable way(s) that they can honor their commitment and satisfy you. If honoring their warranty and satisfying you looks less expensive than the bad press likely to result from not doing so, it wouldn’t be shocking if they took care of you.

I'm thrilled about this post just because i might be selling some 6p metal bodies for serious cash. Who knew, jeez!