I am thankful my polymer lowers are only 79%.

Does the NFA say they can require serial numbers on anything but the receiver. I haven't looked in a while, but I think not. The ATF can interpret the NFA, but not blatantly change it.

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:
I'm surprised ATF hasn't required serial numbers on slides, grips, and barrels like the left much loved European guns do. I mean the ATF just willed bumpstocks away with a wave of their pen. Why not just require it with another edict from the ATF's ivory tower?

Without looking it up, I do not believe the National Firearms Act of 1934 requires serial numbers on anything. Guns without serial numbers were common long after that. Perhaps the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968?

Glocks have SNs on frame, slide and barrel, AFAIK. But lots of other very commonly available guns only have them on the frame/receiver. Hell, just think of how many millions of AR builds are out there with no SN on anything but the lower receiver (if that). That's the best thing to turn in at a gun "buy back" as long as you can get an 80% lower or 3D printer-made lower.

I haven't looked in a while, but IIRC the NFA requires receivers to be serial numbered.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Without looking it up, I do not believe the National Firearms Act of 1934 requires serial numbers on anything. Guns without serial numbers were common long after that. Perhaps the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968?

27 CFR 478.92 says the "receiver or frame" must be serialized.

Since it's statutory and not regulatory, I don't think ATF can just impose serialization on barrels, etc.

Not a lawyer, though.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Without looking it up, I do not believe the National Firearms Act of 1934 requires serial numbers on anything.

NFA firearms must be serialized, otherwise there would be no way to register them. They must have a unique identification number.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
NFA firearms must be serialized ....

Makes sense. But the NFA did not require serializing non-NFA guns—correct?

I thought it was legal to build your own gun without any numbers on it as long as you don't sell it.

With that said I guess the Polymer 80 type companies give you parts that are not fireable but make it easier to finish off by yourself.

The part I don't get is why would you then need numbers on an AR lower since it's also not fireable. Is the difference because you don't need jigs or drills?

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:
The part I don't get is why would you then need numbers on an AR lower since it's also not fireable.

I’m not sure I understand your question, but are you asking if a part of a firearm doesn’t need to have a serial number if it can’t be fired by itself, like an AR lower?

If so, being “fireable” isn’t what makes a part legally the firearm. An extreme example these days is the “receiver” of the SIG P320. The part that has the serial number and therefore is legally the firearm in and of itself is the trough-shaped piece of steel that fits into the grip module and holds the parts like the sear housing and trigger. By itself it’s no more capable of firing a cartridge than a piece of roof gutter, but it’s what SIG has designated as being the receiver of the gun and therefore must be serialized.

The 80% Glock (and other) frames aren’t legally considered firearms because they can’t be assembled into functional firearms until they are modified to accept the parts that complete frames have. That’s why they aren’t subject to the controls of complete guns or even just the finished frames. But the ATF evidently considers the “kits” to be finished firearms because they have all the parts necessary to make a functional Glock frame and action after the 80% part is modified. That “reasoning” turns the concept of an unfinished part’s not being a firearm on its head, but it wouldn’t be the first bit of irrational thinking on the part of a government agency.

On another forum, a member posted a document left after agents from the Tucson BATFE office came to his house demanding a P80 kit be voluntarily surrendered. Given no choice, he did so and posted the receipt given him by BATFE.

The company that made P80 kits was based in Nevada.

So if this is true we now know:

• BATFE statements regarding the legality of things like 80% frames for a Glock clone are essentially worthless, save in the very specific case the statement is made;
  
• BATFE is using customer information to target buyers of 80% frames;
  
• The federal government, BATFE specifically, is once again seizing private property under guise of a voluntary surrender, avoiding the Sixth Amendment requirement for compensation in the taking of private property; and
  
• BATFE will come for your guns once ordered to do so.

What else do we know?
Polymer 80 freely gave the ATF records of their BBS kits sold to customers.

What we don't know, if the person was able to legally own a firearm.

Certain felons and misdemeanor convictions for domestic violence, are prohibited from possessing a firearm. Whether they made it or not is irrelevant.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Blackwater,

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
NFA firearms must be serialized ....

Makes sense. But the NFA did not require serializing non-NFA guns—correct?

Yes sir, you are correct. Mandatory serialization of all firearms did not come about until the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Lots of Poly80s are bought through distributors. They're all listed on Poly80's site, plenty of them have product in stock and prices are still normal. Poly80 doesn't get their distributors' customers' info. Just sayin.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:
On another forum, a member posted a document left after agents from the Tucson BATFE office came to his house demanding a P80 kit be voluntarily surrendered. Given no choice, he did so and posted the receipt given him by BATFE.

The company that made P80 kits was based in Nevada.

So if this is true we now know:

• BATFE statements regarding the legality of things like 80% frames for a Glock clone are essentially worthless, save in the very specific case the statement is made;
  
• BATFE is using customer information to target buyers of 80% frames;
  
• The federal government, BATFE specifically, is once again seizing private property under guise of a voluntary surrender, avoiding the Sixth Amendment requirement for compensation in the taking of private property; and
  
• BATFE will come for your guns once ordered to do so.

I'd like to read more on this. Why did the homeowner even talk to ATF? I don't answer my door for uninvited people and wouldn't think of talking to a gov't. agent, even if they somehow were able to contact me and showed me a warrant. If ATF had a warrant, they'd need PC to get that warrant. What was their PC for the warrant? Poly80 kits have not (yet) been banned, neither by statute nor by executive or judicial fiat.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs: ....who pays $590 bucks for the kit when a real Glock can be had for the same (or even less) money?

Those legally ineligible to purchase and possess firearms because of felony convictions, drug addiction, involuntary treatment of mental health problems, etc... If you want to challenge the constitutionality of these restrictions in the legislatures or courts, have at it. If you just want to get around them, then this operation was set up for your convenience.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
Lots of Poly80s are bought through distributors. They're all listed on Poly80's site, plenty of them have product in stock and prices are still normal. Poly80 doesn't get their distributors' customers' info. Just sayin.

Brownells was also "visited" by the AFT for the Poly80 kits. Just saying.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Brownells was also "visited" by the AFT for the Poly80 kits.

Interesting. I was wondering why they evidently had none for sale yesterday.

So for those of us who are uninitiated to the "unfinished lowers" conversation, is it legal to buy an unfinished lower and finish it out, or no? What sayeth the law? I've seen ads for unfinished lowers that you have to drill out the holes, etc... What percent is that, and how does the percent apply?

If you buy one and possess it unfinished, is that what this is all about? What if you buy it and you finish it, are you then required to get a serial number for the finished rifle/lower?? When does it become illegal?

They are not considered firearms until the frame is more than 80% complete, which you do on a Poly80 by drilling out 2-3 holes and then some other milling/shaving inside the dust cover. Takes 20 min. if you have a Dremel and probably less with a drill press. Once that's done, it's a firearm. Doesn't need a serial number unless you take it to a gunsmith, who will be required to engrave it. For personal use, have at it, no serial # required.

I wouldn't go into business building for people or selling completed ones. But you can sell one if you built it for personal use and then later decided you didn't want it. It's not like they can trace it back to you without a serial #.