quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
I don't have the doomsday lock yet, I just ordered it yesterday. I'm not sure what the instructions say.

I'll likely route the wire through it's own hole anyway, even if not specified instructions, if it's possible to do so without interference with other parts. The hole would be small in diameter, chamfered and a plastic grommet installed.

Having the wire harness, with such soft, thin insulation, in contact with a moving part , can't help anything and can only increase the probability of shorting a circuit through the harness. But, it's possible it will have to go through the same hole, pending on the shape/features of the parts involved.

I'll wait until I get the parts to decide. At this point I anticipate a pretty painless install. I hope the quality of the lock is good, I hate cheap junk.

I suspect (not having seen this specific lock myself) that the cable will need to run through the spindle hole by design. There is usually a plastic or Mylar sleeve that will surround the spindle, and the keypad cable will run outside of that. Additionally, there is commonly a set of plastic relief bushings that comes in the kit, one for each “side” of the spindle hole. So you won’t need to worry about cable damage if properly installed.

If that ends up being the case, even better. It literally, took less than 5 minutes to disassemble and reassemble the lock currently installed. I'm looking forward to getting it installed.

Use a tiny amount of loctite on the screws that mount the lock, and also on the two screws that hold the dial flange. De-grease those holes first, and you should be good. Just follow the printed instructions to the letter.

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:
Use a tiny amount of loctite on the screws that mount the lock, and also on the two screws that hold the dial flange. De-grease those holes first, and you should be good. Just follow the printed instructions to the letter.

Earlier you recommended always hiring a safe/lock tech/professional to do a lock upgrade/replacement, but it's sounding like it's not a difficult task for someone who's handy with tools and can follow instructions?

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:
Use a tiny amount of loctite on the screws that mount the lock, and also on the two screws that hold the dial flange. De-grease those holes first, and you should be good. Just follow the printed instructions to the letter.

Earlier you recommended always hiring a safe/lock tech/professional to do a lock upgrade/replacement, but it's sounding like it's not a difficult task for someone who's handy with tools and can follow instructions?

I still recommend it. The tech can examine the door, hinges, lock/bolt work, linkage, relocking mechanism, and add grease where needed.

It's true that a handy person can install a lock. You usually get ONE chance to cut the spindle. Care must be taken to route/manage the keypad/battery cable without damage.

If the safe hasn't been looked at in several years, a service call is a great investment.

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
I have a Browning/ProSteel with a mechanical lock. Any longterm problems or issues I should be aware of?

Thanks!

Do you know what type of mechanical lock? Could be a S&G 6730, or a cheaper 6741 (probably this), or possibly a LaGard 3330?

How do I tell? I picked it up today but all I was told is it is a Level 2 S&G?

Unrelated question, I have it in my garage on a hard rubber horse stall mat. When I got it down, It was very apparent, there is a slope to my garage floor? the door opens all the way and it doesn’t tip but it concerns me. Any suggestions before I bolt it down?

THANKS!

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
I have a Browning/ProSteel with a mechanical lock. Any longterm problems or issues I should be aware of?

Thanks!

Do you know what type of mechanical lock? Could be a S&G 6730, or a cheaper 6741 (probably this), or possibly a LaGard 3330?

How do I tell? I picked it up today but all I was told is it is a Level 2 S&G?

Unrelated question, I have it in my garage on a hard rubber horse stall mat. When I got it down, It was very apparent, there is a slope to my garage floor? the door opens all the way and it doesn’t tip but it concerns me. Any suggestions before I bolt it down?

THANKS!

If it’s a new safe from a dealer, the Browning ProSteel FAQ says:

“Q: CAN I CHANGE THE COMBINATION ON MY MECHANICAL (DIAL) LOCK?
A: The lock manufacturer requires that the combination be changed by a certified (ALOA or SAFTA) locksmith. A fax or email from the locksmith is required with the new combination for the warranty to be valid. Changing the combination yourself will void the warranty.”

Just ask the tech what type of mechanical lock is installed. It’s either a 6730 or 6741, more than likely, since they told you it was a Group 2 S&G.

There are a couple of ways to level. You can lay the hard mat, then use shims to level. a1abdj (Frank) may have some thoughts in this area.

I finished swapping out the lock last night. It wasn't quite a direct drop-in replacement, but the fabrication required was very minimal.

It took longer to set the mechanical combination than to install the lock, including the 1 alteration I had to make.

I had to make a single lathe necking cut (c-clip-groove) and shorten the spring on the relocker shaft.

I have lots of pics, but I'll have to find some kinda Photobucket alternative to get them posted.

The swap is done. It was easy.

The NL doomsday lock isn't as high quality as I'd hoped, but not much is these days. The actual lacking mechanism that mounts inside the door isn't bad, but the external parts (keypad/dial) are plastic or cast potmetal.

It'll work though. Now I get all the benefits of a electronic lock but none of the worries. Overall, it's worth the $100 cost of the lock and hour of time.

I'll post pics once I find a way.



Looks like I may have got it through google photos.

The safe is a Cannon 64 gun widebody, sold at Tractor Supply. It came with a NL Rotobolt electronic lock.


The inner door panel isn't held in by screws. Simply lift the panel, pull out the bottom, and slide it down until its free from the door body.


This is the lock mechanism. The thin sheetmetal plate is the relocker retaining plate. In case the burglar punches out the lock, the plate releases the spring loaded shaft, which is driven down and locks the safe door.



The relocker plate removed. The relocker shaft is now visible. This device becomes a problem and requires modification once the new lock is installed.






removing the keypad from the front of the door. The two retaining screws will be replaced with screws that were included with the new lock. The lead previously unplugged from the lock mechanism is visible here, and is easily removed by pulling through the hole from the front.


The lock mechanism, removed. The three screws are brass and only engage the threaded holes in the door with about 4 threads. They are obviously designed to be easily broken. It appears that they design is to allow a punch attack to push the lock free from the door rather than allow a punch to penetrate the lock. I'd hazard a guess that allowing a punch to penetrate the lock may defeat the lock and allow access, whereas a punch pushing the lock free would activate the relocker device.

It is now obvious why they chose three screws for mounting the locking mechanism. The missing screw is nearest the relocker mechanism, so a leveraged attack on the doors rotating handle would break the lower left and upper right screws first, and rotate the lock around the lower right screw. This would force the lock away from the door at the upper left (missing) screw, and release the relocker mechanism, thus locking the safe. Pretty smart. I can see the thinking of a Mechanical Engineer in that design.


The lockworks here appears to be rather thin sheetmetal. But, as the two plates that engage the lock mechanisms bolt are closely spaced, they are in direct shear with very little bending moment. A leveraged attack on the rotating door handle would likely break the brass mounting screws, pushing the lock free and activating the relocker before enough bending moment could be generated to push the plates apart.





The new Rotobolt Doomsday locks keypad/dial.



The front of the Doomsday lock/dial. On the right is the new Doomsday lock mechanism. Its a little thicker than the electronic device its replacing, but similar construction and quality.
https://lh3.googleusercontent....=w1050-h591-no[/IMG]



The D shaped protrusion on the left side of the casting becomes a problem later.
Positioning the relocker shaft to prevent accidental locking of the door lockworks.





Removing the old keypads mounting screws.





The new doomsdays keypad/dial mounted in place using 2 provided screws.





The new locks wire lead.


The new lock mechanism mounted in place. The screw pattern was the same requiring no modification. Here you can begin to see the interference issue between the D shaped protrusion on the lock, and the spring/c clip on the relocker shaft.









Here, the new spindle shaft is placed through the hole and into the lock mechamism. It is overlength to accommodate various door thicknesses. It is marked and cut .5" shorter than the mark. The spindle, when cut to proper length and installed, must be countersunk into the keypad/dial housing .5".


The Interference issue:



The fix:
I turned a new groove for the c-clip and shortened the spring. I tested the new setup and it works well.





I also had to adjust the slot sizing for the relocker plates roll-pin. The new locks relocker plate screws were slightly higher, and lifted the relocker shaft up out of its mounting hole.



Here, the lock mechanism is complete, installed, and the relocker tested for function.

Everything works!



After testing the lockworks, lock mechanism and relocker, I reassembled the inner door panel, installed a battery, re-set and tested both the mechanical dial lock and the electronic lock.

All work as they should. Total install time for the mechanicals was about 45 minutes (ish), including lathe and mill time.

It took seconds to reset the electronic combination, and about 10 minutes to change the mechanical combination.

I appreciate your offer ensigmatic, if I can't get this to work, ill email them to you.

Are the pics visible?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ken226,

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
I'll post pics once I find a way.

Email 'em to me. (Under 20MB/batch or my server will reject the email.) I'll host 'em for you, and send you the URLs so you can post them, rather than me.

Looks pretty good, Ken226.

Did you find that the cable ran through the spindle hole, as expected, protected by a sleeve that surrounds the spindle itself? Bushings included for the door (often the included bushings just don't fit, so a modification or alternate bushing must be sourced)?

I wouldn't worry about the lock mounting screws. It's common that they only grab 4-6 threads. If the lock were punched you would expect the external relocker to trip. Additionally, most locks have an internal relocker that would activate if the back cover were to become separated from the lock body.

I always degrease those 4 mounting holes, and add a tiny drop of blue loctite to the screws. Some come pre-primed with a loctite or similar threadlocker.

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:
Looks pretty good, Ken226.

Did you find that the cable ran through the spindle hole, as expected, protected by a sleeve that surrounds the spindle itself? Bushings included for the door (often the included bushings just don't fit, so a modification or alternate bushing must be sourced)?

I wouldn't worry about the lock mounting screws. It's common that they only grab 4-6 threads. If the lock were punched you would expect the external relocker to trip. Additionally, most locks have an internal relocker that would activate if the back cover were to become separated from the lock body.

The new locks wire lead exits the dial/keypad in the center, which made routing through the spindle hole necessary. There was no sleeve provided, however it appears that the hole is big enough, and the spindle shaft small enough, that there is no interference issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:
Looks pretty good, Ken226.

Did you find that the cable ran through the spindle hole, as expected, protected by a sleeve that surrounds the spindle itself? Bushings included for the door (often the included bushings just don't fit, so a modification or alternate bushing must be sourced)?

I wouldn't worry about the lock mounting screws. It's common that they only grab 4-6 threads. If the lock were punched you would expect the external relocker to trip. Additionally, most locks have an internal relocker that would activate if the back cover were to become separated from the lock body.

The new locks wire lead exits the dial/keypad in the center, which made routing through the spindle hole necessary. There was no sleeve provided, however it appears that the hole is big enough, and the spindle shaft small enough, that there is no interference issue.

If it were to become a concern, I can mail you a nylon sleeve.

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:
Looks pretty good, Ken226.

Did you find that the cable ran through the spindle hole, as expected, protected by a sleeve that surrounds the spindle itself? Bushings included for the door (often the included bushings just don't fit, so a modification or alternate bushing must be sourced)?

I wouldn't worry about the lock mounting screws. It's common that they only grab 4-6 threads. If the lock were punched you would expect the external relocker to trip. Additionally, most locks have an internal relocker that would activate if the back cover were to become separated from the lock body.

The new locks wire lead exits the dial/keypad in the center, which made routing through the spindle hole necessary. There was no sleeve provided, however it appears that the hole is big enough, and the spindle shaft small enough, that there is no interference issue.

If it were to become a concern, I can mail you a nylon sleeve.

Greatly appreciated sir. Given the amount of clearance, the probability of abrasion of the lead insulation is near zero. But, I appreciate the offer. Access to that portion of the lock is very simple, only requiring removal of the keypad. If I decide to had a sleeve in the future, it will be a 30 second job.

It appears I have reached a bandwidth limit. I'll try resizing the images and replacing them to reduce bandwidth.

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
I have a Browning/ProSteel with a mechanical lock. Any longterm problems or issues I should be aware of?

Thanks!

Do you know what type of mechanical lock? Could be a S&G 6730, or a cheaper 6741 (probably this), or possibly a LaGard 3330?

I had to call ProSteel to get the answer. It is a 6741. Will that be a problem over time?
Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
I have a Browning/ProSteel with a mechanical lock. Any longterm problems or issues I should be aware of?

Thanks!

Do you know what type of mechanical lock? Could be a S&G 6730, or a cheaper 6741 (probably this), or possibly a LaGard 3330?

I had to call ProSteel to get the answer. It is a 6741. Will that be a problem over time?
Thanks!

No I don't think so. There are thousands out there. I've only had one really old one that had lots of wear (bank opened it ten-twelve x a day).

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
I have a Browning/ProSteel with a mechanical lock. Any longterm problems or issues I should be aware of?

Thanks!

Do you know what type of mechanical lock? Could be a S&G 6730, or a cheaper 6741 (probably this), or possibly a LaGard 3330?

I had to call ProSteel to get the answer. It is a 6741. Will that be a problem over time?
Thanks!

No I don't think so. There are thousands out there. I've only had one really old one that had lots of wear (bank opened it ten-twelve x a day).

Thank you!

Bumped. Will be adding a section on cheap/junk combination locks and how to tell what you might have.

bumped.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:
NL (LP) “Doomsday” Redundant Dual Lock

I wanted to talk a bit about the NL redundant combination lock. This is a fairly new lock (early 2017 release) that provides a UL Type 1 electronic lock and group 2M 4-wheel mechanical lock in a single package. It isn’t designed for all types of safes. Because it’s a handed swingbolt, it can only be mounted as a right hand configuration.



I haven’t used this lock as of yet. I’m hoping to show it to a customer in the next 2-3 weeks and I’ll provide some feedback once I have an opportunity to do so.

I just came across this thread and decided to post since I just happened to order one of these from MB USA yesterday.

I took the rear door panel off my 64 gun Tractor Supply Cannon first to, as best I could, to verify that the swap would even be possible. To verify there is enough metal to fabricate a new lock mount, tap a new screw pattern, drill a hole for the spindle, stuff like that.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that the electronic lock appears to share the same form factor and screw pattern. The external thru-hole the wire was routed through, also appears to be aligned such that it will accommodate the new doomsday locks spindle rod.

It looks like this is going to end up being a 5 minute job. I'll have to drill/chamfer at least 1 hole, to prevent having to pass the electronic lead through the same hole as a moving part (spindle),

At worst though, it'll be an hour job requiring me cut out the old locks mounting face, and weld in a new piece with the correct screw pattern.

Best I can tell from pics though, the Rotobolt Doomsday and the NL rotobolt it's replacing share the same screw pattern.

Striker1, do you happen to know if the two locking mechanisms share the same screw pattern?

Ken, I'm very interested in getting one of these locks for my safe. I have a couple of questions maybe you can answer:
1. Are you hang with the lock?
2. From where did you acquire it?
3. Does it lock automatically when you close the safe or after a period of time?
TIA.

Bumped.

Veering to the common padlock, my Knack box is designed for the Master #5. Over the last two decades, I've bought a 4-pack keyed alike and a 2-pack keyed alike. Lost a few over the years.

I'm ready for one last lifetime purchase, an 8-pack. Box, ladders, miscellaneous crap I lock in the back of my truck, all will use the same key.

Guy I work with says, "Master Locks are crap. Easy to pick". Do I really need to worry about that? Even the Knack box has nothing valuable in it. The one time it was unlocked, someone stole a broken table saw ...