I had a push button electronic keypad. It failed. I think the locksmith said the solenoid failed. He had to drill to get the safe open. I went to the traditional dial. I think it is called Big Red.

Batteries and Power Options

I have posted *verbatim* the battery recommendations from four major electronic lock manufacturers, in no particular order:

NL Lock - “name brand 9V Alkaline EG Duracell”
LP Lock - “Duracell or Eveready recommended”
LAGARD - “Duracell(tm) or Eveready(tm)”
S & G - “preferably Duracell brand”

If your lock uses two batteries, replace both at the same time and never mix battery types or brands. Carbon batteries or “heavy duty” non-alkaline should never be used. Lithium and other exotic batteries for other types of electronics are unnecessary. Most manufacturers — as well as safe companies — recommend ANNUAL battery replacement. Batteries should ALWAYS be replaced with the safe fully open. Care must be taken to not damage, pinch, or nick the insulation on the battery wires and plug. Always thoroughly test the lock, keeping the door open, after the battery has been replaced BEFORE closing and locking the door.


Some manufacturers offer kits that allow your electronic lock to be powered by a plug-in AC-to-DC converter. Keep in mind that these transformers can be fried due to electrical anomalies and thunderstorms. I’d advise against using them.

It’s possible with some lock manufacturers to order and install extended life battery holders, such as the LG4001 “C-cell” unit from LAGARD. This unit powers the lock from 6 C-cell alkaline batteries instead of 1 or 2 9-V batteries. I see the benefit of this in a commercial or banking environment, but it’s probably unnecessary in a home safe. The optional battery holders come with their own set of problems, such as the battery holder cracking or batteries dislodging when a door is slammed, loose plugs, and the like.

Become familiar with your particular lock/safe “low battery” indication; it varies by manufacturer, but it’s important to always have fresh batteries.

Striker, thanks for all of the great info so far. I have a 2013 purchased Winchester TS-22 safe with the Laguard lock pictured in the link below (can't embed from my phone). I change the battery every year and so far it has not had any issues.

Can you tell if this is a problematic model?

What would be the most reliable electronic lock upgrade that I could install? Would like to keep this one electronic since it’s a quick access safe in my closet.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/94367356@N04/t7r4j3

quote:

Originally posted by Brett B:
Striker, thanks for all of the great info so far. I have a 2013 purchased Winchester TS-22 safe with the Laguard lock pictured in the link below (can't embed from my phone). I change the battery every year and so far it has not had any issues.

Can you tell if this is a problematic model?

What would be the most reliable electronic lock upgrade that I could install? Would like to keep this one electronic since it’s a quick access safe in my closet.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/94367356@N04/t7r4j3

The keypad (fixed type, doesn't "rotate to open") indicates a LaGard "BASIC" or "BASIC II" model, which is a swing bolt (pivot bolt). I wouldn't have any concerns at this point. The keypad is a 5750 Entry device, and the lock is most likely a 4200M. Lock is a UL Type 1.

Don’t buy this!!



The sample container shown above should be avoided. It is nothing more than a fancy metal box.

Additionally, the “electronic” lock is inferior and easily compromised.

If you have a container like this, just be mindful of its limitations.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: striker1,

My kid lives in another state, and when I was visiting noted that he didn't have a safe so I moseyed over to the local folks and bought him a solid AMSEC. I wanted to get him the manual lock version (and did), but was dubiously surprised when the AMSEC sales guy told me that they were keeping the stats (warranty repairs) and that their electronic keypads did not need to be repaired as often as their manual ones. Interesting you say that their electronic ones are not top notch. They seemed real proud so them.

Anyway, thank you for the information.

quote:

Originally posted by jimb888:
My kid lives in another state, and when I was visiting noted that he didn't have a safe so I moseyed over to the local folks and bought him a solid AMSEC. I wanted to get him the manual lock version (and did), but was dubiously surprised when the AMSEC sales guy told me that they were keeping the stats (warranty repairs) and that their electronic keypads did not need to be repaired as often as their manual ones. Interesting you say that their electronic ones are not top notch. They seemed real proud so them.

Anyway, thank you for the information.

I don’t think the AMSEC e-locks are a bad choice. I personally would choose S&G over AMSEC, maybe NL/LP as well. From a technical standpoint, one feature I don’t care for is the latch bolt. It’s my opinion that a solenoid-dogged dead bolt is more secure than a latch bolt. The AMSEC latch bolt mechanism is different from most others on the market, in that a solenoid directly pulls the latch bolt up into the lock body. Most other designs, including pivot bolts, utilize a dogging solenoid to prevent the bolt from moving.

I would also be suspicious about the data that suggests mechanical locks have more issues than e-locks. There are some types of entry level mechanical locks with inferior alloys. They will wear after several years of continuous use, so these types are something I routinely replace with far better locks like the S&G 6730.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: striker1,

I have a safe with a S&G mechanical lock that requires the dial go to zero after the combination is dialed in. It’s on a large TL rated safe that came from a pain “management “ clinic when they got shut down. Any idea what model the lock may be and what kind of maintenance it may require?

quote:

Originally posted by indigoss:
I have a safe with a S&G mechanical lock that requires the dial go to zero after the combination is dialed in. It’s on a large TL rated safe that came from a pain “management “ clinic when they got shut down. Any idea what model the lock may be and what kind of maintenance it may require?

Sounds like a standard combination lock, unless you have an 8400 Series Group 1 with the small knob in the center of the dial. All locks of that type, after dialing the combination, require a final turn to the right to retract the bolt, which is a stop at about 95. The 8400 has an additional step with the knob, which is turned to the right with the dial parked at 0. After the knob is turned, the dial can be turned further to the right to retract the bolt.

You can certainly have a tech come out and just inspect the lock. No harm.

There are several types of S&G locks used on common TL safes. So it could be a group 1, but most likely a group 2 or 2M.

Thanks for taking the time for all this. I know a little about safes and locks from my years in Army counterintelligence, but most of that is long outdated.

Even with limited knowledge, I wouldn’t have an electronic lock on a safe holding important stuff. I understand the convenience, but it would be interesting to see a show of hands: How many here have never had an electronic device just stop working for no apparent reason?

Thank You, Striker1. I appreciate your time and effort!

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
... it would be interesting to see a show of hands: How many here have never had an electronic device just stop working for no apparent reason?

That's what keeps me away. We regularly see posters here complaining of malfunctioning electronic locks. I think I vaguely recall seeing maybe one member complaining of a mechanical that had locked him out?

So, while I'd love the convenience (never mind my eyes don't see the markings on a mechanical so well), I cannot bring myself to trusting 'em.

Nonetheless: Appreciate s1's info-sharing.

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:
NL (LP) “Doomsday” Redundant Dual Lock

I wanted to talk a bit about the NL redundant combination lock. This is a fairly new lock (early 2017 release) that provides a UL Type 1 electronic lock and group 2M 4-wheel mechanical lock in a single package. It isn’t designed for all types of safes. Because it’s a handed swingbolt, it can only be mounted as a right hand configuration.



I haven’t used this lock as of yet. I’m hoping to show it to a customer in the next 2-3 weeks and I’ll provide some feedback once I have an opportunity to do so.

I just came across this thread and decided to post since I just happened to order one of these from MB USA yesterday.

I took the rear door panel off my 64 gun Tractor Supply Cannon first to, as best I could, to verify that the swap would even be possible. To verify there is enough metal to fabricate a new lock mount, tap a new screw pattern, drill a hole for the spindle, stuff like that.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that the electronic lock appears to share the same form factor and screw pattern. The external thru-hole the wire was routed through, also appears to be aligned such that it will accommodate the new doomsday locks spindle rod.

It looks like this is going to end up being a 5 minute job. I'll have to drill/chamfer at least 1 hole, to prevent having to pass the electronic lead through the same hole as a moving part (spindle),

At worst though, it'll be an hour job requiring me cut out the old locks mounting face, and weld in a new piece with the correct screw pattern.

Best I can tell from pics though, the Rotobolt Doomsday and the NL rotobolt it's replacing share the same screw pattern.

Striker1, do you happen to know if the two locking mechanisms share the same screw pattern?

Yes, all these modern locks share the same mounting footprint. Some locks may only have 3 mounting holes; the assumption is that the safe has all 4 holes.

Do the instructions for the new “Doomsday” lock explicitly state to drill a separate hole for the keypad cable, and not run through the spindle hole?

I don't have the doomsday lock yet, I just ordered it yesterday. I'm not sure what the instructions say.

I'll likely route the wire through it's own hole anyway, even if not specified instructions, if it's possible to do so without interference with other parts. The hole would be small in diameter, chamfered and a plastic grommet installed.

Having the wire harness, with such soft, thin insulation, in contact with a moving part , can't help anything and can only increase the probability of shorting a circuit through the harness. But, it's possible it will have to go through the same hole, pending on the shape/features of the parts involved.

I'll wait until I get the parts to decide. At this point I anticipate a pretty painless install. I hope the quality of the lock is good, I hate cheap junk.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Thanks for taking the time for all this. I know a little about safes and locks from my years in Army counterintelligence, but most of that is long outdated.

Even with limited knowledge, I wouldn’t have an electronic lock on a safe holding important stuff. I understand the convenience, but it would be interesting to see a show of hands: How many here have never had an electronic device just stop working for no apparent reason?

Never, or not in the last five minutes?
Batteries, wires, mechanical stuff, etc. There is plenty to keep Mr. Murphy occupied...

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
I don't have the doomsday lock yet, I just ordered it yesterday. I'm not sure what the instructions say.

I'll likely route the wire through it's own hole anyway, even if not specified instructions, if it's possible to do so without interference with other parts. The hole would be small in diameter, chamfered and a plastic grommet installed.

Having the wire harness, with such soft, thin insulation, in contact with a moving part , can't help anything and can only increase the probability of shorting a circuit through the harness. But, it's possible it will have to go through the same hole, pending on the shape/features of the parts involved.

I'll wait until I get the parts to decide. At this point I anticipate a pretty painless install. I hope the quality of the lock is good, I hate cheap junk.

I suspect (not having seen this specific lock myself) that the cable will need to run through the spindle hole by design. There is usually a plastic or Mylar sleeve that will surround the spindle, and the keypad cable will run outside of that. Additionally, there is commonly a set of plastic relief bushings that comes in the kit, one for each “side” of the spindle hole. So you won’t need to worry about cable damage if properly installed.

quote:

Originally posted by striker1:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
I don't have the doomsday lock yet, I just ordered it yesterday. I'm not sure what the instructions say.

I'll likely route the wire through it's own hole anyway, even if not specified instructions, if it's possible to do so without interference with other parts. The hole would be small in diameter, chamfered and a plastic grommet installed.

Having the wire harness, with such soft, thin insulation, in contact with a moving part , can't help anything and can only increase the probability of shorting a circuit through the harness. But, it's possible it will have to go through the same hole, pending on the shape/features of the parts involved.

I'll wait until I get the parts to decide. At this point I anticipate a pretty painless install. I hope the quality of the lock is good, I hate cheap junk.

I suspect (not having seen this specific lock myself) that the cable will need to run through the spindle hole by design. There is usually a plastic or Mylar sleeve that will surround the spindle, and the keypad cable will run outside of that. Additionally, there is commonly a set of plastic relief bushings that comes in the kit, one for each “side” of the spindle hole. So you won’t need to worry about cable damage if properly installed.

If that ends up being the case, even better. It literally, took less than 5 minutes to disassemble and reassemble the lock currently installed. I'm looking forward to getting it installed.

Watching with interest. I hate my dial lock, but don't entirely trust electronic locks. This may be my answer. Would prefer it not be shiny chrome, but you can't always get everything you want

Yeah, I'm with you. I hate the chrome.

If that chrome bezel is metal, I'm cerakoting it. If plastic, I'll learn to live with it.

Once it shows up in the mail, I'll post an update. With pics if I can find an alternative to photobucket.