The audio showed up on my YouTube feed. I started listening to it. 30 seconds in I realized what was about to happen and was filled with dread. So I stopped the video. I didn’t want to be haunted by it.

Very sad and most likely, very avoidable.
The only real question I can think of, why did they choose to fly into that weather?

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
It's unfortunate that the audio is out there. If it was something on a CVR, it might take months to get released, if it ever was, but ATC audio pulled out of the sky just exists.

It's hard to listen to but imagine if you knew anybody on that plane, particularly the pilot on the radio.

The release of the audio reminds me of the Alaskan grizzly bear documentary about Timothy Treadwell.

The fatal bear attack he and his female partner endured was recorded on a lenscap-covered video-camera.

It is said the audio is locked away and will never be released. If it were, I would not listen to it.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
Very sad and most likely, very avoidable.
The only real question I can think of, why did they choose to fly into that weather?

Inexperience.

Thanks for the warning Para. I don't need to have those sounds and voices embedded in my head.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
Very sad and most likely, very avoidable.
The only real question I can think of, why did they choose to fly into that weather?

Inexperience.

Newsmax crawler states that female "copilot" (presumably the voice on the recording) was only 20 years old.

^^^ Not "presumably". It is confirmed elsewhere. But, what does age have anything to do with it? She got to have passed all the requirements to be the co-pilot, right? Bush 41 became a Navy fighter pilot at 18. There were WW II pilots even younger.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
But, what does age have anything to do with it. She got to have passed all the requirements to be the co-pilot, right?

Do you want someone, tasked with protecting your life, to be able to pass a test, or do you want someone who can pass that test and have experience?

I haven't flown anywhere in years, but when I did I was always comforted a bit looking up into the cockpit and seeing a crusty old grey haired guy sitting in the left seat.

quote:

Do you want someone, tasked with protecting your life, to be able to pass a test, or do you want someone who can pass that test and have experience?

Tired old argument. She was the co-pilot. The more experienced pilot sat next to her. How do people in all professions become experienced, if no one give them a chance? Civilization would grind to a halt.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
^^^ Not "presumably". It is confirmed elsewhere. But, what does age have anything to do with it. She got to have passed all the requirements to be the co-pilot, right? Bush 41 became a Navy fighter pilot at 18. There were WW II pilots even younger.

Age has everything to do with experience. No matter how gifted a pilot someone might be, having a lot of experience helps you make good decisions and not get into a situation that even the best pilots cannot recover from.

In any case, she appears to have been the pilot monitoring on this flight. I have not seen any confirmation on who the Captain of this flight was. One would hope the company did not put two inexperienced pilots in the same cockpit.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
How do people in all professions become experienced, if no one give them a chance?

I agree completely. And, to be clear, I'm not placing any blame for this on her.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
From the still shots it doesn't appear to have horizontal stabilizers. I'd guess that could cause the uncontrolled dive, but why would they come off? Bad turbulence? Bad maintenance?

If the horizontal stabs were truly gone, I would suspect the jet was going far faster than it was ever designed to go. Stress on those surfaces probably caused them to break off. I watched the video from the rear-view car camera - it appeared to me to impact like a missile.

Having listened to the audio, I thought for the most part this young lady had remained professional, despite being obviously and understandably terrified. And in that time she was able to pass on information during the rapid descent that will be helpful to the crash investigators.

^^^ My exact sentiment.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

she got to have passed all the requirements to be the co-pilot, right?

The requirements are minimal. Commercial pilot certificate with instrument rating. Absolutely no requirement for type rating in this airplane, absolutely no requirement for any training in this airplane. If this were her first exposure to the Lear, with zero previous hours, no training, she could still have met all the legal requirements for SIC (Second In Command, aka "co-pilot").

How do I know this? I've been there. Way back, when I had a brand new commercial certificate, I was hanging around the local airport one afternoon and was given the opportunity to fly as a legally required crew member (SIC) for a charter flight -- the passenger was Bob Hope. The pilot gave me my instructions: 'Just set there. Don't touch anything."

---

UPDATE: I stand corrected on this. My assertion regarding certification requirements for the co-pilot, stated above, are correct for domestic flights. However, this flight's destination was North Eleuthera in The Bahamas. For international trips, an SIC type rating (which can be issued via completion of an approved training program or familiarization training without a full practical test) must be added to the pilot's certificate, so in order to be legal, she had to have had proper documentation of training for that make and model -- Lear Model 60. I have not found any comment in any of the reports that I have seen, that states whether or not she met this requirement.

Was this a commercial flight or a privately owned plane? If commercial, how does a 20 year old get into the cockpit? A 20 year old can't even rent a car.

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon:

If commercial, how does a 20 year old get into the cockpit? A 20 year old can't even rent a car.

Minimum age for Commercial Pilot certificate is 18.

quote:

FAR* 61.123:

Eligibility requirements: General.
To be eligible for a commercial pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Be at least 18 years of age

---

*FAR -- Federal Aviation Regulations

Reports are she earned her license at 17, and was aiming to become a commercial pilot at an airline, she was also SIC, second in command, she was not the main pilot of the aircraft.

https://x.com/rookisaacman/status/2117292922693431496



Jared Isaacman
@rookisaacman

Writing this in my personal capacity, but I have been flying these types of aircraft for more than 20 years, with over 8,000 hours, and have reasonable familiarity with how the charter world operates. I feel compelled to post after seeing commentary about the Lear 60 crash, from missile strikes to DEI to critiquing this poor woman’s final radio calls.

That last part is what I find most troubling. She was the second-in-command (SIC), and while she was empowered to point out mistakes as part of good crew resource management, she was doing her job, communicating with ATC right to the end in a terrifying situation. She likely knew before many of those calls that she was going to die. I have heard final calls from friends, from military pilots with thousands of hours in fighter aircraft, and they are just as heartbreaking because they know the end is approaching.

I understand the public interest given the footage and audio. But you do not know the aircraft’s maintenance history, whether there was a structural failure, if any failure was induced by turbulence, overspeed, or overcontrol, or everything happening in that cockpit. I am sure weather will be part of the investigation, but beyond that, it is speculation. The charter industry routinely hires commercial pilots very early in their careers to gain experience alongside an ATP-qualified captain before they move up to the airlines. She would still have the appropriate training, qualifications, and checkouts by an FAA examiner or designee.

Let people investigate, learn, and share the facts. Be respectful to those who perished and the families who carry their memories. God bless them and their loved ones.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by bigwagon:

If commercial, how does a 20 year old get into the cockpit? A 20 year old can't even rent a car.

Minimum age for Commercial Pilot certificate is 18.

quote:

FAR* 61.123:

Eligibility requirements: General.
To be eligible for a commercial pilot certificate, a person must:
(a) Be at least 18 years of age

---

*FAR -- Federal Aviation Regulations

That's the law, but is it common for commercial operations to actually hire people that young?

Ok, here's my professional opinion, as a former instructor at an airline for years, of the 20 yr old female first officer, given that we know nearly nothing other than she got her private pilot certificate before she could get her driver's license.

She was inexperienced but probably very sharp, especially on instruments. Inexperienced in that she probably had not many hours up at those altitudes navigating around thunderstorms. She surely understood thunderstorms since she was from that area, but using the radar effectively and understanding turn radius at those high altitudes may not have been well understood.

But from the few photos I've seen online of her aviation experiences, it appears he had good training regarding instrument flying. The photos suggest a good general training education. People who have a passion for flying at a young age and pursue it the way she did are usually bright and competent.

I agree she probably was keying the mic to get information recorded for after the fact. I infer she was doing some CYA to not be blamed, and at first she expected a successful recovery given the way she sounded. And, totally guessing, it could be she had prior bad experiences with this captain and wanted documentation. She was giving information to the flying pilot like a real pro, calling out their descent rate, high airspeed, and bank angle. And then when she implores the flying pilot to look out the window it is clear she understood the aircraft situation and that she believed the flying pilot was not applying proper corrections.

It will be interesting to learn about the captain's age and experience, as well as what the training program consisted of for both of them. Also, corporate/cockpit culture is an important consideration. Did the company just put warm bodies in the right seat to make it legal? Was there a strong safety culture? Did they get frequent simulator training to practice high altitude upsets? Did they get good and frequent training on use of radar and other relevant topics?