quote:

Originally posted by newtoSig765:

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

Engineers: We are going to take an engine and stick some control surfaces on it. Oh and a gun...

Nope! No gun. Only armament was a pair of Sidewinder missiles,

Check again.

Its the very first aircraft to carry the Vulcan cannon. There are a ton of pictures I found in a 30 second search. The gun bay was on the left of the fuselage with the barrel mouth even with the pilot.

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

Engineers: We are going to take an engine and stick some control surfaces on it. Oh and a gun.

About the same time, naval aviation says if one engine is good, two is better.

Poof!

F-4.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

Engineers: We are going to take an engine and stick some control surfaces on it. Oh and a gun.

About the same time, naval aviation says if one engine is good, two is better.

Poof!

F-4.

Yep that plane traded the gun for another engine. LOL

I met a guy who did this. A friend of my boss, he said it was the greatest thing he ever did.

the Germans had a lot of problems with the initial deliveries of the 104 and the cannon

Wow! As a former puddle jumper pilot, the F-104 is so fast I think the ride would just be a blur. I used to work at the hanger at the East end of the field at Deer Valley. I'd be outside the hanger sometimes when an F-104 came over the fence on final. Always thought they looked like they were doing about 200 knots. Looks like I wasn't far wrong. Also enjoyed seeing the F8 and A-3 flying in the neighborhood. We lived a couple of miles W. of DVT. One day we were out on the back deck when some of Thunderbird Aviation's jets were very active. Neighbor on his back deck was PO'd about the noise. We enjoyed the heck out of the air show

Hey Rock- I worked on those Crusaders for Thunderbird Aviation. My dad had the avionics shop at Thunderbird and I preferred working on the mechanical side of it, so my summer jobs in High School and College were there. It had manuals that were so detailed, it was like making a model. I pulled the AB off the engine by myself, and surprised the chief mechanic. The engines for the Crusaders were old Airforce J-57's from....F104's if I remember correctly.

They had the Mohawk the bad guy flew in the Blue Thunder TV show, and several T-33 and 37s.

They had a bone yard west of the runway and had A-7's A37's and some other interesting bits. One of the A37's wasn't properly demilitarized, and someone got busted selling the mini-gun out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by rock185:
Wow! As a former puddle jumper pilot, the F-104 is so fast I think the ride would just be a blur. I used to work at the hanger at the East end of the field at Deer Valley. I'd be outside the hanger sometimes when an F-104 came over the fence on final. Always thought they looked like they were doing about 200 knots. Looks like I wasn't far wrong. Also enjoyed seeing the F8 and A-3 flying in the neighborhood. We lived a couple of miles W. of DVT. One day we were out on the back deck when some of Thunderbird Aviation's jets were very active. Neighbor on his back deck was PO'd about the noise. We enjoyed the heck out of the air show

F-104 used J-79s.

The F100, KC-135, F102, Buffs and U-2s were a few that used J-57s.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
the Germans had a lot of problems with the initial deliveries of the 104 and the cannon

I read Erich Hartmann's bio (highest scoring ace of all times). He was against the Luftwaffe buying F-104s. It was just too complicated for the average German pilot of the day. He was over-ruled, and MANY German pilots died when the plane got away from them. It wasn't the plane's fault; it was a VERY hot and unforgiving aircraft, and required highly skilled pilots. Hartmann's opinion was that the Luftwaffe just *had* to have the sexiest high-performance jet in the world, and let this over-ride their common sense.


I LOVE F-104s. I saw some of these fly at an airshow years ago. They really only did one maneuver - fly by fast in a straight line (it was an interceptor, not a fighter, so it wasn't built for maneuverability). It was still impressive to see them up close.

While in Germany in the early 90s, I did see some Italian F-104s flying around my base, but they were pretty far away. It was cool to see them up close and personal (at the airshow, as they taxied, their engines made the coolest noise).

I'll pay for the jet if you guys will pick up fuel and maintenance.

Weren't they were designed as bomber interceptors - to kill Bear bombers. Zoom up, shoot down bombers and come back.

They did serve in Vietnam as air-superiority fighters, and in ground attack roles. The Air Force never really loved them.

I'd fly in one in a New York minute.

there was also that wee problem of the 104 being the only airplane to shoot itself down

its was so fast that after a few seconds of firing its cannon, it would actually ingest the bullets and trash the engines....

modified procedure was to fire for a few seconds and then pull up slightly so you wouldn't overtake the bullets at high Mach

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by newtoSig765:

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

Engineers: We are going to take an engine and stick some control surfaces on it. Oh and a gun...

Nope! No gun. Only armament was a pair of Sidewinder missiles,

Check again...

You're right. A simple check of Wikipedia said the same thing, but I relied on my memory, which can be dangerous these days. Its primary role as a Sidewinder-equipped bomber interceptor stuck in my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
there was also that wee problem of the 104 being the only airplane to shoot itself down

Not so.

http://www.tailsthroughtime.co...hot-itself-down.html

just spoke with the owner

the three day course with a 1 hour orientation flight including maximum performance takeoff, supersonic flight, basic aerobatics and a high-speed low pass is $22,900

additional flights are $19,000

a bit rich for my blood

OK, so I might have to sell three friends into bondage...but hey. Supersonic.

and a very low high speed pass down the shuttle landing strip...can't beat that with a stick...

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:
OK, so I might have to sell three friends into bondage...but hey. Supersonic.

"Honey, I have some bad news . . . "

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
just spoke with the owner

the three day course with a 1 hour orientation flight including maximum performance takeoff, supersonic flight, basic aerobatics and a high-speed low pass is $22,900

additional flights are $19,000

a bit rich for my blood

Now think about what it's going to take to get proficient enough to get a demonstrated letter o authorization/type rating.

I'm undergoing training on a type rating at the moment for a far less sporty aircraft, and it will be over 60 days training, and 100 hours of full motion simulator before we ever get to the actual aircraft.

What the F-104 three day "training" amounts to is a really expensive gee-whiz nickle ride. The actual pilot training for qualification in the airplane...something else. Someone would be far better off to go get a type and training in some high performance turbojet equipment first, and be up to speed when showing up for the training in the 104. There is zero possibility of someone without that background showing up and adapting, without some significant training behind them.

while we were talking, he said that the average check out type to get a type rating was 25 hours (and that was for someone with high performance time already under their belt - like an F16 driver)