BATFE reversal of reversal of Open Letter on Shouldering SIG-style Brace

April 24, 2017, 09:10 PM

Sig2340

Around and 'round and 'round like a bloody merry go round.

Note: no copy of the BATFE reversal was provided by SB Tactical.

quote:
PRESS RELEASE: SB Tactical™ Announces Reversal of ATF Open Letter on the Use of SB Tactical Pistol Stabilizing Braces®

Saint Petersburg, Fla. (April, 25, 2017) – SB Tactical™, inventors and manufacturers of the Pistol Stabilizing Brace®, is excited to announce that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) has issued SB Tactical a reversal letter containing a sensible clarification of the Bureau’s position on the lawful use of SB Tactical braces.

The new clarification of opinion letter states, “an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not reconfigured for use as a shoulder stock – even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder. To the extent that the January 2015 Open Letter implied or has been construed to hold that incidental, sporadic, or situational “use” of an arm-brace (in its original approved configuration) equipped firearm from a firing position at or near the shoulder was sufficient to constitute “redesign,” such interpretations are incorrect and not consistent with ATF’s interpretation of the statute or the manner in which it has historically been enforced.”

ROSAL

If this is in the wrong subforum, please move it.

April 24, 2017, 09:19 PM

12131

Safe for at least the next 4 years, eh?

April 24, 2017, 09:37 PM

Il Cattivo

"[I]ncidental, sporadic and situational 'use'" - I get what incidental and sporadic mean, but what exactly are they saying is a "situational" use?

What would constitute sufficient evidence to prove that someone always used the brace as a shoulder stock and had therefore magically turned the pistol into an SBR?

April 24, 2017, 09:40 PM

Sig2340

quote:
Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
"[I]ncidental, sporadic and situational 'use'" - I get what incidental and sporadic mean, but what exactly are they saying is a "situational" use?

What would constitute sufficient evidence to prove that someone always used the brace as a shoulder stock and had therefore magically turned the pistol into an SBR?

I have no idea.

April 24, 2017, 09:43 PM

bobtheelf

Maybe it's time for an AR pistol after all.

April 24, 2017, 09:45 PM

CQB60

Add ATF to the list of government agencies that need to be disolved. wankers the lot of them!

April 24, 2017, 09:53 PM

EmpireState

There was a time when I wasn't sure about how I felt about when people would call for the ATF to be disbanded. Extreme I thought. As time has gone by and I have learned more, my feeling have changed. Disband them. This pistol brace touching your shoulder crap is just one thing in a long line of things they have gotten wrong. It actually disgusts me seeing videos of grown men on youtube shooting with the damn thing on their cheek and other places, succumbing to the fear of the ATF coming to snatch them up if the brace touched their shoulder. The fast and furious scandal that nobody was held accountable for, the politicization of the bureau under Obama, the shoulder brace thing, the opinion letters (brace, suppressor wipe), etc. Cut their funding. On top of that, the "white paper" that comes out recently where they even say that the laws on SBR's and suppressors are basically bullshit.

Edit to add....on top of the insanely long NFA approval times. They should be ashamed of themselves.

April 24, 2017, 10:02 PM

bubbatime

You got it. Seems like some good things coming out of the ATF under this administration, if you can believe it.

April 24, 2017, 10:04 PM

Turbo216

So, if I'm reading this right, your AR pistol with a brace is still a pistol no matter how you might hold it, as long as you've never altered the brace itself. Or, more simply, "we can't tell you how to hold your pistol."

April 24, 2017, 10:16 PM

LDD

quote:
Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
"[I]ncidental, sporadic and situational 'use'" - I get what incidental and sporadic mean, but what exactly are they saying is a "situational" use?

What would constitute sufficient evidence to prove that someone always used the brace as a shoulder stock and had therefore magically turned the pistol into an SBR?

No one can say until there's an actual case that gets tried with relevant facts in play.

I've always been surprised at BATFE's willingness to issue this kind of opinion letter. Courts generally will not issue an advisory opinion (giving an opinion on a rule/statute w/o an actual case), not sure what makes agencies so willing to when courts will not.

For those of you calling for the disbanding of BATFE, that will only work if the culture you so disapprove of is not transmitted to another agency.

The laws regarding NFA, etc will still have affect, and therefore require an agency (no matter what its name is) to enforce them. And it's likely with the way that gov't works, the same GS-XX that issued BATFE FTB's opinions that you don't like will simply get absorbed into whatever new agency/existing agency is tasked with enforcing the NFA. Same actors, new costumes.

April 24, 2017, 10:28 PM

oddball

Here is the actual letter from DOJ/BATFE (PDF)
https://www.thetruthaboutguns....er-Final-3.21.17.pdf

With the punchline in the document:

quote:
Therefore, an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock- even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder

April 24, 2017, 10:43 PM

FlyingScot

Excellent. Now when will Geiselle release an SSA trigger they approve for the MPX

. I like my SB tactical collapsing brace.

April 24, 2017, 10:57 PM

cslinger

Honestly most of these laws are either meant to be a nuisance to the law abiding or a tack on charge to a criminal.

Hell my thoughts are that it should all be perfectly legal unless you are committing a crime.

Would any of us scoff if SBR/SBS/Suppressors were perfectly legal......unless used in a crime and then they would be used as additional charges/negotiating.

My point is there is a middle ground so to speak. Allow the law abiding what they want but the minute said item is used in a REAL crime start tacking charges on.

April 24, 2017, 11:12 PM

Il Cattivo

From the letter, it almost sounds as if they're saying you can use an arm brace any way you want as long as you don't physically modify it in a way that (1) it is less effective as an arm brace or (2) it is more effective as a shoulder stock.

Of course that takes us right back around the merry-go-round - the letter only says its OK if the use is "incidental, sporadic or situational". Ugh. I'm going to bed.

April 24, 2017, 11:19 PM

cslinger

Again this is all so stupid. Make SBR/SBS/Suppressors legal. They are not in any way more or less dangerous then any other firearm. One could argue that full auto, without training, especially with tiny full autos such as mini uzis do add a level of additional danger to an untrained shooter and or bystanders no matter how thin the argument. The same cannot be said for SBS/SBR/Supressors.

Make them all legal and just make there use in a crime extra onerous.

April 24, 2017, 11:51 PM

BBMW

Let's separate the henchmen from the villains here. The bureaucrats at the ATF play the cards that Congress has dealt them. The could be much more of a problem than they are.

For instance, the could have easily (from a legal standpoint), banned the SIG brace, and equivalents. The didn't. But they have to follow the NFA. So the can't do anything will supressors unless Congress changes the law.

April 24, 2017, 11:58 PM

Mike S

To clarify my position on the BATFE and their reversal of their initial reversal of their original position: I may or may not have ever given a shit to begin with

April 25, 2017, 12:43 AM

James in Denver

quote:
Originally posted by Turbo216:
So, if I'm reading this right, your AR pistol with a brace is still a pistol no matter how you might hold it, as long as you've never altered the brace itself. Or, more simply, "we can't tell you how to hold your pistol."

Ok, so the way I read the letter and the statement on "affix to the buffer tube", I'm getting the same thing.

Buy the brace, leave it alone and your good-to-go for "occasional/sporadic" use in whatever way you see fit.

So, that brings up the Odin Works "stop thing" which makes the brace be more-or-less like a stock. Or the Phase 5 (?) tube that has the wide part that stops the brace from moving. Or the tube that has the divots in it for the Blade brace to lock in to. I'd seriously question those types of "gadgets".

Buy the brace, install it, use it how you like, just don't "modify" it.

That's how I read it...

James

----------------------------
"Voldemorte himself created his worst enemy, just as tyrants everywhere do! Have you any idea how much tyrants fear the people they oppress? All of them realize that, one day, amongst their many victims, there is sure to be one who rises against them and strikes back!"
Book 6 - Ch 23