My nephew served 20 years with honor and many commendations. He retired out at E8, he got a free college education while enlisted and is now comfortably retired and working as a FEMA advisor.

He bought a nice spread in Oklahoma and is as happy as can be at 45 years old.

Cyber warfare and cyber security are the #1 priorities of the US military right now. Huge potential into the future. If that's what he is interested in, he'll get to do the real thing and not just classroom stuff that is 10 years behind.

quote:

Head strong and responsible but a slow self starter. If pushed, he digs in and won't budge.

IMO, this is going to be a problem unless he gets it under control ALL THE TIME.

Often, there just isn't the time or the inclination to talk folks into doing things. It's "Do this. Do it now." Arguing about it or "dragging your feet" is not an option.

Of course things may have changed since I was a Senior Chief...

Thirty years here, and all of the above. With the exception of golf. At least in my last hitch in the Pentagon, it was hard to play in the dark, after fighting the Beltway to get there before 5 AM, and after leaving at 7 or 8 at night. And there was too much sand in some of the other places I went. It's a great career choice, but as others have mentioned, you have to bring something to the fight now - the military in general is reducing the force structure across the board, particularly the officer corps, and I recommend a degree and a commission as others have. If he's really interested and pursues it, he'll get there, but good to do some research on what the Air Force needs. The recruiter can help - I worked in DP with General Pamerleau (Personnel) for a couple of "career broadening" years in San Antone, and they'll give you the straight skinny. Best of luck!

I have been retired from the Army for longer than I was in, and my exposure to the Air Force was early in my career, but the one thing I’ll advise anyone interested in joining any of the armed forces is to get reliable information from the people who actually know what they’re talking about.
Although no one likes to admit it, life-changing decisions have been based on some clown’s juvenile comments about having to play golf to succeed in a career or how the officers club gets built before the runways.

When I saw things, including being assigned to an AF base in Korea for six months, their living conditions were nicer than the Army’s (calling barracks “dormitories” and mess halls “dining” facilities was a significant indicator for me), but enlisted personnel were promoted much more slowly. At the time no one thought it odd for someone to retire with 20 years as an E-6; although it was during the Vietnam era, I made that grade with two and a half years in, and E-7 with a bit over eight years during the doldrums. That may be completely different now, but if one is thinking of a career, it’s something to look at.

Oh, and yeah: No one should join the armed forces who cannot follow orders, no matter how insensitively they’re given. I heard some incredible things about personnel policies and practices during the pre-GWOT era, but things change continually. People can go from being tucked into bed at night to sleeping in a hole in the ground the next day no matter what their branch of service. And just like the speed of light, following military orders isn’t only a good idea, it’s the Law.

I was Army on active duty originally and then went into the Air Guard so I got to experience the Air Force Way and I liked it, a lot.

The Air Force has a different, almost corporate, culture than the other services and has the best facilities and treats their members better than the other services as well.

Something to keep in mind (other members please correct me if I'm out of date with this info):

The US Army CAN guarantee you a job (MOS) in writing before you go anywhere.

The USAF will NOT guarantee you a job (AFSC) in writing, but rather a "career field" and the AFSC you end up with may NOT be the AFSC you were promised. (this may have changed)

quote:

Originally posted by LouieH:
If pushed, he digs in and won't budge.

That may be a big problem, because your son WILL be pushed.

But maybe the USAF is the push he needs to grow up.

I had 2 years in Army National Guard as a Combat MP.....so when I decided to go active duty I went into the Air Force as Security Police Law Enforcement Specialist and then went K9 handler after training. I had a great time......considering I was in the Infantry of the Air Force (Air Base Ground Defense).

If he is going in, look at different career paths, find what he likes and has potential, and go in guaranteed that field. Don't go in "Open General" he could end up in a shit field. Lots of options for him with computer and or electronics from aircraft to drones. Going in enlisted is alright, he can take advantage of benefits to finish his degree and then has options of getting out, continuing as enlisted, or going to Officer Candidate School (the absolute best officers I served under were prior enlisted). The important thing is get a career and a Top Secret clearance that he could use in the civilian side of the government and government contractors (check job listings and you will see everyone of them require a current TS clearance.

I enlisted in the Air Force Reserve, back in 1981. I liked it, so went active duty in 2003. I retired as an E-7 in 2008.

Although there were some not fun moments, I greatly enjoyed my career in aircraft maintenance.

Personally, I didn't completely trust the WAPS (promotion) system but that might just be sour grapes.

My recruiter asked "Do you enjoy being outside?" I said "Yes". He also asked "Do you enjoy being indoors?" I said "Yes". That began my life as a crew chief (C-5, C-141, Inspection dock, Refurbishment dock, Transient Alert/Crash Recovery).

I have some interesting video, that our Armed Forces Network produced, while I was TDY at Ali Air Base, Iraq. If you click the link (my YouTube channel) and scroll down far enough, you can see some of the career fields descriptions. As stated, if there's anything else you'd like to know, PM me and I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DesignCBTs

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Does he golf?

LOL

I'd urge him to consider getting the BA and going into officer training.

Associate degree allowed me to enlist (Navy) as an E3 (retired E7). If interested in becoming an Officer, best to get a four year degree, although there are some enlisted programs leading to a commission but that is the tougher selection route to go.

If joining as enlisted, make sure the recruiter guarantees in writing, follow on schooling after bootcamp, in a rate/job choice of your son's choosing. Otherwise, he could end up "chipping paint" for a good while as a non-rate enlisted.

If not qualified to enlist as an officer, the recruiter can also advise about programs leading to a commission and possibly even enlist him directly into one of those programs, depending on selection factors.

My feel is that the Air Force has always been the slowest to promote. That said, I have a first cousin that retired E9 from the Air Force, so the "cream does rise to the top". Being in the right place at the right time as far as assignments and getting the right tickets punched (qualifications and duties) helps too.

Military service is a life changer and your son needs to embrace and own that decision in order to be successful.

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:


My feel is that the Air Force has always been the slowest to promote.

They are slower. This may be due in part to the USAF not having Warrant Officers like the Army, Navy and Marines do. In those services you have a fair number of E-5's and E-6's going Warrant which helps move things along. In the USAF, there are no Warrants so there's not that movement.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by Hobbs:


My feel is that the Air Force has always been the slowest to promote.

They are slower. This may be due in part to the USAF not having Warrant Officers like the Army, Navy and Marines do. In those services you have a fair number of E-5's and E-6's going Warrant which helps move things along. In the USAF, there are no Warrants so there's not that movement.

No Warrant Officers in the Navy either, only Chief Warrant Officers.

Must be E-7 or above to go the CWO route.

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:

quote:

Otherwise out of all the services, the AF is the most business-like - ie, the have rules and agreements, then usually abide by them (work hours, Time off, etc). The other services are more ‘get it done’, which means lots of time trying to lasso the moon, engage warp driv for another unreasonable request, or field exercise.

I would agree that it is less chaotic than the Army or Marine Corps, and probably the Navy aboard ship, but to say it is business-like with rules and agreements, whatever that means, is stupid. It is a military organization like any other and acts the part I can assure you.

Well, considering I heard the USAF squadrons in country saying they had only agreed to 14 sorties a day and that was it, because the rule book said it was all the 12 plane, 30 pilot squadron could possibly muster. In the CAOC planning cell, heard it with my own ears.

And the AF F-16 driver saying (in response to a 2008 article by the Secretary of the Air Force say the USAF needed to do more for the war effort) "We are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in a war zone - what more do they want?" . Yes I heard it, face to face after asking him directly about the article. I had a hard time not laughing in his face after flying 100hr months into OEF, with the whole ship working 45 days launching planes without a single day off. After that we went to 1 no fly day every 2 weeks for 5 months straight.

But if you were in the USAF, you probably wouldn't understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:
I would agree that it is less chaotic than the Army or Marine Corps, and probably the Navy aboard ship, but to say it is business-like with rules and agreements, whatever that means, is stupid...

Never served in the AF (but loved to stay in their BOQs when able as it was always MUCH better than anything available on a Navy or Marine base ). However, I think the word I would use for them would be more "standardized." I don't know if that's true throughout the AF, but it sure seemed to be in the times I spent dealing/flying with their squadrons.

I've heard that SOPs for same-aircraft squadrons are the same no matter what squadron you're in. Not sure if that's 100% true but from the outside looking in it sure seemed that way. By comparison, in my time you could go to each of the 4 Marine Harrier squadrons on the East Coast and find things completely different operationally in each even though they resided directly beside each other on the same base. Is that good? Not always, but it did place more responsibility on the individual it seemed as there wasn't an SOP to always fall back on.

To the OPs question - from what you've described I think the AF would be a fine service for him. They certainly have the technology fields that might suit him given his background an interest. I've suggested the AF both to my daughter as something to consider after she graduates college (although I doubt she'll go into the service at all) and to others. It's a fine branch of service with a lot of opportunity it seems.

I notice no one has recommended the Marines yet . I know it's not a service branch for everyone and it is certainly not for those who don't like to be "pushed." But there IS that Esprit de Corps that you don't find in any of the other service braches as a whole. It's not for everyone, but for a lot of those who become a Marine, if nothing else it instills a sense of pride and accomplishment that follows you the rest of your life.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:


And the AF F-16 driver saying (in response to a 2008 article by the Secretary of the Air Force say the USAF needed to do more for the war effort) "We are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in a war zone - what more do they want?" . Yes I heard it, face to face after asking him directly about the article. I had a hard time not laughing in his face after flying 100hr months into OEF, with the whole ship working 45 days launching planes without a single day off. After that we went to 1 no fly day every 2 weeks for 5 months straight.

But if you were in the USAF, you probably wouldn't understand.

I was at Al Jaber Air Base in Kuwait in 2003 during the Shock & Awe and OIF kickoff.

Not a few days after Saddam stopped shooting SCUDs at us, the USAF powers-that-be had us AF and ANG back to 6 on, 1 off and no more than 12 hour duty days. Civilian clothes allowed off duty. The Army and Marines all massing to go north and working basically 24/7 could not believe their eyes.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:

quote:

Otherwise out of all the services, the AF is the most business-like - ie, the have rules and agreements, then usually abide by them (work hours, Time off, etc). The other services are more ‘get it done’, which means lots of time trying to lasso the moon, engage warp driv for another unreasonable request, or field exercise.

I would agree that it is less chaotic than the Army or Marine Corps, and probably the Navy aboard ship, but to say it is business-like with rules and agreements, whatever that means, is stupid. It is a military organization like any other and acts the part I can assure you.

Well, considering I heard the USAF squadrons in country saying they had only agreed to 14 sorties a day and that was it, because the rule book said it was all the 12 plane, 30 pilot squadron could possibly muster. In the CAOC planning cell, heard it with my own ears.

And the AF F-16 driver saying (in response to a 2008 article by the Secretary of the Air Force say the USAF needed to do more for the war effort) "We are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in a war zone - what more do they want?" . Yes I heard it, face to face after asking him directly about the article. I had a hard time not laughing in his face after flying 100hr months into OEF, with the whole ship working 45 days launching planes without a single day off. After that we went to 1 no fly day every 2 weeks for 5 months straight.

But if you were in the USAF, you probably wouldn't understand.

Man that reminds me, I need to look up what we (VF-2 and VF-1 flying F-14As) flew during Desert Storm while on the Ranger. I know between the two squadrons only one bird was hard down (VF-1's i might add ).

I think we flew 24/7 with four days off in a nearly 100 day stretch. To include five minute and 15 minute alerts.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:

quote:

Otherwise out of all the services, the AF is the most business-like - ie, the have rules and agreements, then usually abide by them (work hours, Time off, etc). The other services are more ‘get it done’, which means lots of time trying to lasso the moon, engage warp driv for another unreasonable request, or field exercise.

I would agree that it is less chaotic than the Army or Marine Corps, and probably the Navy aboard ship, but to say it is business-like with rules and agreements, whatever that means, is stupid. It is a military organization like any other and acts the part I can assure you.

Well, considering I heard the USAF squadrons in country saying they had only agreed to 14 sorties a day and that was it, because the rule book said it was all the 12 plane, 30 pilot squadron could possibly muster. In the CAOC planning cell, heard it with my own ears.

And the AF F-16 driver saying (in response to a 2008 article by the Secretary of the Air Force say the USAF needed to do more for the war effort) "We are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in a war zone - what more do they want?" . Yes I heard it, face to face after asking him directly about the article. I had a hard time not laughing in his face after flying 100hr months into OEF, with the whole ship working 45 days launching planes without a single day off. After that we went to 1 no fly day every 2 weeks for 5 months straight.

But if you were in the USAF, you probably wouldn't understand.

There is so much that goes into generating aircraft for a mission, it's impossible to put it all into a post here. I served in the Air Force until I was too physically broken to continue. A lot of that physical wear and tear came from working untold hours and sleeping on, in, around the aircraft we worked tirelessly to keep flying. Old planes, no parts, too many flight hours. There's only so much one can do to keep planes flying. Many planes in the 90s and 00s were 50 and 60 years old and had holes in them from vietnam. We lost people to crashes. We lost aircraft to sleep deprivation. We scavenged the parts we could, paid our respects to our fallen brothers and sisters and carried on. It isn't a contest to see who had it worse, the clintons were hard on the military. Obama was worse. Millenials have been hard on the military. The reality is that a lot of military service is just hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

As for advice? At 21, stay in school. Get it done. If he needs a break, consider an air national guard unit. He'll be motivated after 6-12 months of training to go back to school and finish. If he chooses to make the USAF a career, there's still opportunities to go active duty or some other choice.

A careerfield and specific job can absolutely be set and signed in a contract prior to enlistment. I wouldn't do it any other way. With a 2 year degree complete, 2 stripes should be awarded. He'll still be behind his peers. He'll be expected to lead. He'll be expected to be the example. Following training, he can make his own crowd. Be professional and good at his job...invest in his career on and off duty, and he'll find the right crowd. There are tons of opportunities in the USAF. You can serve in a business like manner or you can serve in some high speed low drag jobs that other services respect very highly. The elite of the USAF is not easy to get into.

Trying to catch up on this while at work, I will go back through and read more closely as I can this evening.
In response to a couple of questions and comments; this is something that he is discussing. He brought it up for a while about a year ago, but never really looked into it or seemed serious. He is talking about it again now, and seems to be working on a plan of sorts, and gathering information. He should be finished with his Associated this Fall. He has a friend who is also considering the Air Force, and they are discussing going in together, possibly in about 8 months.
We live in Wood River/ Bethalto area, I believe the Air Guard might be a possibility that he should look into. I will mention it to him.
If he continues to show interest, I will suggest and encourage him to have some one on one conversations with folks who have lived it. Thank you to those who have made the suggestion and offered help in that.
I've got to jump back off for now. I worry about him. I want him to make the right decision for him. I hope he is smart enough to figure out what that is and go in fully informed, and I hope I am wise enough to offer the guidance and support that he needs.

If he can go in enlisted, and they'll pay for this bachelors, he should do it. If not, he should finish this bachelors, then look at all the branches.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:

quote:

Otherwise out of all the services, the AF is the most business-like - ie, the have rules and agreements, then usually abide by them (work hours, Time off, etc). The other services are more ‘get it done’, which means lots of time trying to lasso the moon, engage warp driv for another unreasonable request, or field exercise.

I would agree that it is less chaotic than the Army or Marine Corps, and probably the Navy aboard ship, but to say it is business-like with rules and agreements, whatever that means, is stupid. It is a military organization like any other and acts the part I can assure you.

Well, considering I heard the USAF squadrons in country saying they had only agreed to 14 sorties a day and that was it, because the rule book said it was all the 12 plane, 30 pilot squadron could possibly muster. In the CAOC planning cell, heard it with my own ears.

And the AF F-16 driver saying (in response to a 2008 article by the Secretary of the Air Force say the USAF needed to do more for the war effort) "We are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in a war zone - what more do they want?" . Yes I heard it, face to face after asking him directly about the article. I had a hard time not laughing in his face after flying 100hr months into OEF, with the whole ship working 45 days launching planes without a single day off. After that we went to 1 no fly day every 2 weeks for 5 months straight.

But if you were in the USAF, you probably wouldn't understand.

There is so much that goes into generating aircraft for a mission, it's impossible to put it all into a post here. I served in the Air Force until I was too physically broken to continue. A lot of that physical wear and tear came from working untold hours and sleeping on, in, around the aircraft we worked tirelessly to keep flying. Old planes, no parts, too many flight hours. There's only so much one can do to keep planes flying. Many planes in the 90s and 00s were 50 and 60 years old and had holes in them from vietnam. We lost people to crashes. We lost aircraft to sleep deprivation. We scavenged the parts we could, paid our respects to our fallen brothers and sisters and carried on. It isn't a contest to see who had it worse, the clintons were hard on the military. Obama was worse. Millenials have been hard on the military. The reality is that a lot of military service is just hard. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Dude, I am aware. We were flying old F-14s at the time, so to hear the USAF guys wanking was just funny when we were generating 14 sorties a day with 7 planes on the flight deck and 14 pilots.

Plus the Navy and Marines tend to throw out the rulebook because we want to fight more, not wait in line for chow at the DFAC.