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Originally posted by Bytes:

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Originally posted by FenderBender:
Remember Reloader, the basic premise for these people is, "Fuck you I got mine!" I can tell you today, with no uncertainty there is only one group of people, one generation who those who came before and after both hate. The boomers will go down as the single worst people in the history of western civilization they killed Europe, and are doing their best to kill the United States. No generation before in human history did more to make life worse for their children then the "Me generation." That's how the Gen Z historians already view them, and no one trusts millennials and gen x doesn't care enough to have an opinion after a lifetime of abuse. So that will be how it gets recorded, and rightly so.

The classic historical analysis: “Boomers ruined everything.” Interesting, especially when supported by zero facts.

I’m a boomer. I’ve been working since sixth grade. That started with physical labor—manual sprinkler irrigation in southeast Idaho. If you’ve never done that at 5:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m., seven days a week, from spring through fall, I highly recommend it. It's a character-builder.

From 1970 through the late ’70s, I worked in a family lumber yard, which occasionally required missing school or turning in partial homework because work still had to get done. After that, I spent the next four decades as a software engineer. Like many in the field, I enjoyed the dot-com crash and the 2008 financial crisis, both of which came with roughly 50% pay cuts just to remain employed. Apparently, that was the part where everything was “easy.”

So when I hear that my generation “killed Europe” and is now “killing the United States,” I’m genuinely curious which policies, decisions, or actions you’re referring to. Not vibes. Not generational astrology. Actual causes.

I’m old enough that I don’t need approval from internet historians, but my wife, children, and grandchildren seem reasonably satisfied with the outcomes so far.

If you’d like to talk about how to make things better for younger generations, I’m open to that. If the plan is simply to assign blame by birth year, then I assume the solution is what?

But I repeat myself

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there seems to be a view of "my individual experience was this way, and that means more than aggregate data."

Here, I'll break out and highlight the facts for you.


***Here it comes! read below!***

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Originally posted by FenderBender:

First time homebuyers are the oldest they've ever been, and we as western civilization are suffering extreme population collapse. so it's not some subset but the vast majority under 40 are failing to thrive where as boomers are wealthier than they've ever been

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Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
It's not about exceptions, it's about averages.

Boomer and boomer-adjacent-silent-generation politicians have run up massive national debt. It amounts to massive vote buying, and handouts to the politically favored in exchange for "campaign contributions". This is undeniable fact. And they will get all their SS and Medicare and bankrupt the system and GenX and later will get the short end.

The greatest generation was frugal. So frugal they repainted and cleaned up the car Kennedy got shot in and CONTINUED TO US IT FOR LBJ. It was a perfectly good car. Can you imagine that today?

Boomers have selfishly defined every era they lived.

When they were young it was all about them fighting against the Vietnam war and for civil rights (except they were too young to do much with civil rights - early boomers from 1946 were only 18 when civil rights passed in 1964). There parents were wrong and they were going to change the world.

In the 70's they got stoned and slept around and that was ok then. In the 80's they became yuppies. Now they are retiring and it's the younger people that are the problem. It is boomer's parenting that created Millennials, right?

All the great popular music is Boomer music.

I could go on, but as a GenX "baby buster" I've had to hear boomers my entire life talking about how great they are and ignoring or trivializing every other generation.

Averages: the statistical method that turns millions of people into a single villain.

You’re right that politicians (many of them boomers) ran up massive debt. They were also elected, re-elected, and enthusiastically supported by voters from every generation once those generations showed up to vote.

Social Security and Medicare weren’t “handouts”; they were programs people paid into for decades. Blaming the recipients for decades of bipartisan mismanagement is certainly convenient, thank you for pointing out the obvious Einstein.

The Greatest Generation comparison is lame. They were frugal, no doubt — though I suspect continuing to use the Kennedy limousine had more to do with logistics than moral superiority.

The boomer life-cycle bitch is also noted: protest as a young dick head, adapt in adulthood, retire in old age. Weird how that works isn't it?

Boomers have ruined the world and somehow raised entire generations who are now helpless victims of that parenting. That’s an impressive level of incompetence?

Every generation thinks the one before it broke everything. The only difference is that some of us eventually notice we have a hand on the wheel. Have you? Nope.

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Originally posted by FenderBender:
Remember Reloader, the basic premise for these people is, "Fuck you I got mine!" I can tell you today, with no uncertainty there is only one group of people, one generation who those who came before and after both hate. The boomers will go down as the single worst people in the history of western civilization they killed Europe, and are doing their best to kill the United States. No generation before in human history did more to make life worse for their children then the "Me generation." That's how the Gen Z historians already view them, and no one trusts millennials and gen x doesn't care enough to have an opinion after a lifetime of abuse. So that will be how it gets recorded, and rightly so.

That’s funny because I’m not a boomer. Sorry to disappoint you. Gen X. Additionally, I’ve worked full time since I was 10 years old. Been taking care of myself since 6, nobody home so essentially I wasted myself. I’ve busted my ass in this life. Nothing was handed to me. I’m extremely grateful to be an American, born and raised. In no other country could I come from Section 8 living to owning a home, having degrees, etc. And I did it all myself with no help from anyone sans my government who graciously gave me a Pell Grant that I could use for 3 semesters. I could have kept using it but I leveled up in College working in my field and switching jobs to make more money.

At 21, or 25, I wasn’t buying $1000 phones or any of the rest of the shit that goes on today. At those ages, I had a simple, used, economy car, and was working full time while going to college full time. Living in an efficiency apartment, and was the living the opposite of my “best life”. There is no “fuck you I got mine” attitude here. I have volunteered for many years, donated money. Generalizations are rampant on both sides.

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At 21, or 25, I wasn’t buying $1000 phones or any of the rest of the shit that goes on today.

Dude, at 21, or 25, none of that shit existed...Just Sayin'

Oh, and 'FenderBender' is NOT wrong here!

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Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
Remember Reloader, the basic premise for these people is, "Fuck you I got mine!" I can tell you today, with no uncertainty there is only one group of people, one generation who those who came before and after both hate. The boomers will go down as the single worst people in the history of western civilization they killed Europe, and are doing their best to kill the United States. No generation before in human history did more to make life worse for their children then the "Me generation." That's how the Gen Z historians already view them, and no one trusts millennials and gen x doesn't care enough to have an opinion after a lifetime of abuse. So that will be how it gets recorded, and rightly so.

That’s funny because I’m not a boomer. Sorry to disappoint you. Gen X. Additionally, I’ve worked full time since I was 10 years old. Been taking care of myself since 6, nobody home so essentially I wasted myself. I’ve busted my ass in this life. Nothing was handed to me. I’m extremely grateful to be an American, born and raised. In no other country could I come from Section 8 living to owning a home, having degrees, etc. And I did it all myself with no help from anyone sans my government who graciously gave me a Pell Grant that I could use for 3 semesters. I could have kept using it but I leveled up in College working in my field and switching jobs to make more money.

At 21, or 25, I wasn’t buying $1000 phones or any of the rest of the shit that goes on today. At those ages, I had a simple, used, economy car, and was working full time while going to college full time. Living in an efficiency apartment, and was the living the opposite of my “best life”. There is no “fuck you I got mine” attitude here. I have volunteered for many years, donated money. Generalizations are rampant on both sides.

Thanks Prefontaine, I was afraid my generation was the only one responsible for the collapse of society as we know it Rock On Fender!

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Originally posted by Bytes:

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by FenderBender:
Remember Reloader, the basic premise for these people is, "Fuck you I got mine!" I can tell you today, with no uncertainty there is only one group of people, one generation who those who came before and after both hate. The boomers will go down as the single worst people in the history of western civilization they killed Europe, and are doing their best to kill the United States. No generation before in human history did more to make life worse for their children then the "Me generation." That's how the Gen Z historians already view them, and no one trusts millennials and gen x doesn't care enough to have an opinion after a lifetime of abuse. So that will be how it gets recorded, and rightly so.

That’s funny because I’m not a boomer. Sorry to disappoint you. Gen X. Additionally, I’ve worked full time since I was 10 years old. Been taking care of myself since 6, nobody home so essentially I wasted myself. I’ve busted my ass in this life. Nothing was handed to me. I’m extremely grateful to be an American, born and raised. In no other country could I come from Section 8 living to owning a home, having degrees, etc. And I did it all myself with no help from anyone sans my government who graciously gave me a Pell Grant that I could use for 3 semesters. I could have kept using it but I leveled up in College working in my field and switching jobs to make more money.

At 21, or 25, I wasn’t buying $1000 phones or any of the rest of the shit that goes on today. At those ages, I had a simple, used, economy car, and was working full time while going to college full time. Living in an efficiency apartment, and was the living the opposite of my “best life”. There is no “fuck you I got mine” attitude here. I have volunteered for many years, donated money. Generalizations are rampant on both sides.

Thanks Prefontaine, I was afraid my generation was the only one responsible for the collapse of society as we know it Rock On Fender!

Don't trust anyone over 30, maaaaan

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Originally posted by Bytes:
Social Security and Medicare weren’t “handouts”; they were programs people paid into for decades. Blaming the recipients for decades of bipartisan mismanagement is certainly convenient, thank you for pointing out the obvious Einstein.

Boomers have ruined the world and somehow raised entire generations who are now helpless victims of that parenting. That’s an impressive level of incompetence?

Every generation thinks the one before it broke everything. The only difference is that some of us eventually notice we have a hand on the wheel. Have you? Nope.

By handouts I meant the massive grift to the politically favored that we are now finding out via DOGE, the green energy boondoggles, the endless array of NGO's that take government money and accomplish nothing but enriching themselves and kicking money back to the politicians.

As the boomers die off, everyone after them is left holding the massive national debt bag. The day of reckoning hasn't happened yet. When it comes it could rival the Great Depression. China is doing everything they can to help crash the dollar and then step in with their RMB to replace it.

Boomers gave away our entire industrial base which is unforgivable and a threat to national security.

Millenials are indeed victims of their Boomer parents. At least Gen Z (raised by GenX) is more realist and more conservative overall.

I have my hand on the wheel, but I made the mistake of voting for Perot in 1992. Bush lied about no new taxes and Clinton was full of shit. And Clinton - a boomer - got elected due to Perot siphoning Bush's votes. Had we stuck with Bush things might be a lot different today.

When I was looking to buy the first home, 1977 "starter" (entry/affordable) home about $45k and 8.5% for first time buyer. (median)

Today that is about $240 today and 5.5%.

And, luxury of the day was telephone, TV, cable, 2nd car, stereo system, albums, cameras, higher end furnishings.

A lot of those things that were "nice to have", but other than the phone and tv, radio. We did without.
(the phone because I was military and on flying duty subject to world wide no-notice deployment)
The radio, then the TV, took a little over a year to acquire.

Both I and my wife worked. I rode a motorcycle, and she drove, or we "shared" rides with others during times we only had one means of transportation or to save gas money.

And 55 cent gas then is todays $3 gas now, but todays better fuel mileage helps wash the higher vehicle costs. But overall, "what I could afford then", would be about the same thing I could afford today with the same value of income and the same level of vehicle purchased today at similar buying power and what is "entry level" vehicles.

The amount of money pissed away, by people that believe the "have to have" everything, is silly.

In America, almost everyone has a phone, some have phones, tablets and computers, including the children, many before they are adolescent.

The idea that we were smothered in wealth and today's young people are living in a wasteland, strip-mined and barren of anything but blowing dust and little water is silly, yet that is the bleak tell that is told in the cold harsh night, around a blackened spot where not firewood can be had to burn.

Yeah. Grow a pair, instead of fear of "toxic masculinity" preventing males from being men, and asserting, forging, fighting their own fears of failing.

Hint #1 Everyone will fail along the way, and learning to fail forward, and only retreat to get a better running start at the next obstacle will help propel one further.

Hint #2. After that obstacle is dealt with, there will be more.

Hint #3. Goto #1...


"I guess it comes down to a simple choice really- get busy living, or get busy dying."
-Andy Dufresne
The Shawshank Redemption

I’m not gonna add a story here because the plural of anecdote is not data. But, I will leave this as food for thought.

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Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
By handouts I meant the massive grift to the politically favored that we are now finding out via DOGE, the green energy boondoggles, the endless array of NGO's that take government money and accomplish nothing but enriching themselves and kicking money back to the politicians.

As the boomers die off, everyone after them is left holding the massive national debt bag. The day of reckoning hasn't happened yet. When it comes it could rival the Great Depression. China is doing everything they can to help crash the dollar and then step in with their RMB to replace it.

Boomers gave away our entire industrial base which is unforgivable and a threat to national security.

Millenials are indeed victims of their Boomer parents. At least Gen Z (raised by GenX) is more realist and more conservative overall.

I have my hand on the wheel, but I made the mistake of voting for Perot in 1992. Bush lied about no new taxes and Clinton was full of shit. And Clinton - a boomer - got elected due to Perot siphoning Bush's votes. Had we stuck with Bush things might be a lot different today.

That’s a longer gripe list, but it still boils down to the idea that one generation somehow ran the whole show while everyone else just watched from the porch. Are you kidding me?

Sure, there’s been plenty of grift, waste, and politicians getting rich off taxpayer money. That fucking dog's been hunting a long time, and it didn’t do it by itself. It took voters, donors, corporations, and a whole lot of people keeping the same folks in office election after election.

The debt’s real, and the bill’s coming. But Gen X, Millennials, and now Gen Z have all had a hand on the ballot box, and most of them kept voting for the same nonsense. Hard to blame the cow when everyone keeps milk­ing it.

Shipping the industrial base overseas wasn’t some boomer garage project, it was bipartisan globalization, pushed by corporations and happily supported by consumers who wanted cheap TVs and cheaper socks.

The story where Millennials are helpless victims and Gen Z is the wise fix-all is comfort food. Every generation tells itself that right before reality smacks it upside the head.

And yeah, Perot mattered—which is a nice reminder that votes have consequences. Funny how that lesson always stops right after the one election folks regret.

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Originally posted by Bytes:

Thanks Prefontaine, I was afraid my generation was the only one responsible for the collapse of society as we know it Rock On Fender!

Not boomers or any generation is “responsible”. Boomers didn’t have a bunch of puppets on strings going “mu ha ha” we are going to f up society! And make the homes expensive! This Gen Z rhetoric is Reality > Narratives.

For scale, the average apartment here is almost $2k a month. And you can’t hardly find a vacancy. They are Luxury with pools, gyms, etc.

And full of people in their 20s paying $24,000 a year to live there.

Why do they charge $2k a month? Because people will pay it. And they are standing in line to get in.

For the “just the facts” crowd, explain to me how a lot of 20 something’s, many with college debt, and all of the amenities discussed, afford it plus utilities?

Pretty simple. They live beyond their means. If people would stop renting above their means, people wouldn’t be standing in line to rent. If people aren’t standing in line to rent, prices come down.

Housing costs what it does because people will pay it. When they can’t pay it, costs go down.

A man with money worries about what it will cost. A man without money only cares about what the payment is. We are a society that worries only about the payment amount.

^^^ Add a roomate and it's $1K a month. That's probably what they are doing. The college debt is income based minimum payments, which will cause the loan balance to increase over time. Minimum payment should be interest only to make sure the balance never grows. Everything else is credit cards, and you can file bankruptcy every 7 years and discharge a lot of that. For some, that's a feature not a bug.

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Originally posted by Bytes:
That’s a longer gripe list, but it still boils down to the idea that one generation somehow ran the whole show while everyone else just watched from the porch. Are you kidding me?

Sure, there’s been plenty of grift, waste, and politicians getting rich off taxpayer money. That fucking dog's been hunting a long time, and it didn’t do it by itself. It took voters, donors, corporations, and a whole lot of people keeping the same folks in office election after election.

The debt’s real, and the bill’s coming. But Gen X, Millennials, and now Gen Z have all had a hand on the ballot box, and most of them kept voting for the same nonsense. Hard to blame the cow when everyone keeps milk­ing it.

Shipping the industrial base overseas wasn’t some boomer garage project, it was bipartisan globalization, pushed by corporations and happily supported by consumers who wanted cheap TVs and cheaper socks.

I am being somewhat of a devil's advocate and I know everyone else older and younger got to vote during boomers' lifetimes. But boomers are the biggest generation by far, and they have had an outside influence on the country, culture, and government. There's a reason they have been called the "me" generation.

The debt exploded pretty much from 1980 forward, which means that boomers got to vote in every election except the youngest boomers in 1980 election. Reagan deficit spent to win the cold war, like we deficit spent during WWII, but not as much. We should have changed to paying off that debt after the USSR collapsed, like after WWII. The "war on terror" after 9/11 is something we all know well so we don't have to discuss that waste of money. But Bush W. and a lot of the people on Congress that voted for it were boomers. And the people the joined up and gave their lives were Gen X and Millennials.

NAFTA was Clinton, China into the WTO was Bush II. I watched many factories close after that happened. Hell, boomers in the company I work for sent me to China to build factories for our products!

The overriding behavior in all of this is boomers doing what is best for THEM and not best for the country, the future, or their grandkids. Pelosi made a ton of money insider trading. Do you think the legislation she allowed to move forward was for the best of the country or the best of her portfolio?

That's enough for now, you are not going to change your point of view. But even as a 1/2 Italian person I can admit that Italians had an outside role in organized crime, and Italy as a country is a minor player on the world stage and perpetually failing to get very far in the modern world. Doesn't change the fact that I am not in organized crime and do not live in Italy. Things are what they are, even if individuals vary.

I have no idea what generation I am. And couldn't give a shit less.

I guess blaming your parents and grandparents is the way to go versus being grateful for the sacrifices they made to give you the opportunities you have.

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The boomer life-cycle bitch is also noted: protest as a young dick head, adapt in adulthood, retire in old age. Weird how that works isn't it?

Boomers have ruined the world and somehow raised entire generations who are now helpless victims of that parenting. That’s an impressive level of incompetence?

Every generation thinks the one before it broke everything. The only difference is that some of us eventually notice we have a hand on the wheel. Have you? Nope.

Well said.

Was it Ben Franklin who said that if you’re not a liberal in your twenties you’re heartless and if you’re not a conservative in your forties you’re a fool?

Or something like that..

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Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
^^^ Add a roomate and it's $1K a month. That's probably what they are doing. The college debt is income based minimum payments, which will cause the loan balance to increase over time. Minimum payment should be interest only to make sure the balance never grows. Everything else is credit cards, and you can file bankruptcy every 7 years and discharge a lot of that. For some, that's a feature not a bug.

Ok it’s $1000 per month. Now add $800 a month for a car payment (for 6-8 years). The new iPhone each time it comes out. The student loan debt. The credit cards. The answer is still the same.

The younger generation believes that everything I have that took me 50 years to get should be theirs right now. And massive debt is the answer. And the housing market reflects this. We were talking about real estate prices and why they are so high. People live way above their means.

My kids and their spouse are all in their 30's. They've all been voting since they were 18, so nearly 20 years for the oldest, and at least 3 Presidential elections for the youngest.

Their age cohort vote substantially left. I believe only 3 of the 9 of my kids/their spouses vote mostly red.

And then my parents and grandparents, who were all pre-1933 born, voted largely Dem through JFK, and then after that many of their generations were frightened into supporting the left with threats to their Social Security in campaign ads.

Blaming boomers is dumb.

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Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Blaming boomers is dumb.

Correct. The generation is not bad, people within that generation were/are bad. Not unlike the priest scandals. The Church isn't bad, priests within that Church were/are bad.

But, it is easier(lazier) to generalize.